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PentecostalFire
Ferret
Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 101
Location: Louisiana
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 Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: The Father is the Holy Ghost |
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1. God the Father raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24; Ephesians 1:17-20), yet the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).
2. God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead (Romans 4:17; I Timothy 6:13), yet the Spirit will do so (Romans 8:11).
3. The Spirit adopts us, which means He is our Father (Romans 8:15-16).
4. The Holy Spirit fills the life of a Christian (John 14:17; Acts 4:31), yet the Spirit of the Father fills hearts (Ephesians 3:14-16). It is the Father who lives in us (John 14:23).
5. The Holy Ghost is our Comforter (John 14:26, Greek parakletos), yet God the Father is the God of all comfort (paraklesis) who comforts (parakaleo) us in all our tribulation (II Corinthians 1:3-4).
6. The Spirit sanctifies us (I Peter 1:2), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).
7. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (II Timothy 3:16), yet the Old Testament prophets were moved by the Holy Ghost (II Peter 1:21).
8. Our bodies are temples of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17), yet they are temples of the Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 6:19).
9. The Spirit of the Father will give us words to say in time of persecution (Matthew 10:20), but the Holy Ghost will do so (Mark 13:11).
10. John 3:16 says God is the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus referred to the Father as His own Father many times (John 5:17-18). Yet Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:35 plainly reveal that the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus Christ. According to these verses of Scripture, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost and was born the Son of God as a result.
The one who causes conception to take place is the father. Since all verses of Scripture in reference to the conception or begetting of the Son of God speak of the Holy Ghost as the agent of conception, it is evident that the father of the human body is the Spirit; it is only reasonable to conclude that the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
11. Joel 2:27-29 records the words of Jehovah God: "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh." Peter applied this verse of Scripture to the baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4,16-18). Thus the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the one Jehovah God of the Old Testament. Since there is only one Spirit, obviously the Spirit of Jehovah must be the Holy Spirit.
12. The Bible calls the Holy Spirit the "Spirit of the LORD" (Isaiah 40:13), the Spirit of God (Genesis 1:2), and the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20). Since there is only one Spirit, all these phrases must refer to the same being. The Holy Spirit is none other than Jehovah God and none other than the Father. |
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doctrellor
Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989
Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed: YHWH and his Power (aka the HS) are the same ...
The only ones I see who would fight against this thread would be the Trinitarians ... as JW's and us Unitarians agree with the Premise that HS = YHWH
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Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement! |
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A_C
House Cat
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: Holy Spirit |
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Indeed, the Holy Spirit is God's power.
IF the HS were a separate ' person ' as trinitarians claim, then the father of the trinitarian jesus is the HS and not God the Father.
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee : therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35) KJV
trinitarians read that as -
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost ' person ' shall come upon thee , . . . . which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
We must also notice how the trinity formulation fails also regarding their christ's alleged ' pre-existance '.
NB: ' shall be called the Son of God ' a future event which means before it was born it wasn't called the Son of God and therefore proves it did not literally pre-exist. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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What does Jesus mean when He says, "Before Abraham, I AM."? Or, when he says in John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you."
How does this relate to the idea that the Holy Spirit is God? |
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Nickman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 276
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Holy Spirit by definition from original Hebrew and Greek mean "set apart breath". Its like wind that cannot be seen but has an effect. God gave his HS/power to men. That is all that is happening in the OT and NT. Jesus had authority to do the things he did, the same as the Apostles. Jesus and his Apostle are one and there is no difference, all are humans using God's given power for specific tasks to bring unbelievers to God.
Nick
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I want to get a vending machine, with fun sized candy bars, and the glass in front is a magnifying glass. You'll be mad, but it will be too late.
-MITCH HEDBERG |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Food for thought. Did you know that the first believers were called Nazarines, not Christians. Did you know that the first believers attended synaguages and were Hebrew. There were also Pagan believers who lived outside of country of Israel. Yeshua was a Hebrew from Palastine. The Apostles were Hebrew. Think for one moment, if Jesus came back today what would He think of the place you worship. Would He come back to Rome and the Vatican, or to Jerusalem in Israel.
Jesus taught in Matthew chapter 5 that He did not come to change but to fulfill the Law and the prophets. What does that mean. Does it mean He wanted a different church or that He wanted us to believe as God had planned for us to believe as He stated in the Old Testament. |
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A_C
House Cat
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | What does Jesus mean when He says, "Before Abraham, I AM."? Or, when he says in John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you."
How does this relate to the idea that the Holy Spirit is God? |
Christ's reference to Abraham is to affirm his (Christ's) pre-eminence, not pre-existence. The Jews had claimed that Abraham was their father (vs. 39) and so Christ establishes his pre-eminence in the divine purpose by stating that before Abraham was, "I am". He did not say "before Abraham was, I was" as it is frequently misread. But the Jews, like modern-day trinitarians, misunderstood Jesus. He was not claiming to be literally older in years than Abraham. This is indicated by his prior remark: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." (vs. 56). Abraham, to whom the gospel was preached (Gal. 3:8), "saw" the day of Christ through the eye of faith. Christ was "foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times". (1 Peter 1:20). He was foreordained in the divine purpose, but not formed. Similarly in the divine purpose he was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) but literally he was not slain until his crucifixion in the time of Pilate.
There is no proof that Christ alludes to the divine name (imperfectly rendered by the A.V., "I am that I am"). Jesus simply uses the present tense of the verb "to be". Even if this verse were intended to be read as an allusion to the divine name, this is not proof that Christ was claiming to be "Very God". The divine name declared, "I will be what I will be". (Exod. 3:14 R.S.V. mg.). The name was a prophetic declaration of the divine purpose. Jesus Christ was "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16), "the word" (Greek: logos) "made flesh." (John 1:14). As such, he was the expression of the divine character, "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14 cf. Exod. 33:19), and became the "firstborn among many brethren". (Rom. 8:29). Christ was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan. As he himself said, "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42).
(WRESTED SCRIPTURES) |
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Sibbechai
Tadpole
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: The holy spirit is a person? |
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Hello, I'm new to this forum, this is my first post. I'm from the Netherlands so my English might not always be perfectly correct. I apoligize in advance  .
To me it's very interesting to realise that in John 14:16, 17 and 16:7, 8, 13, 14, where in the English language the pronouns "he" and "him" are used in reference to "the counselor/comforter/helper" or "the spirit of truth", the apostle John in the original Greek language actually used the neuter pronoun "it", because the Greek word for "spirit" is neuter. This refutes the assertion that this spirit is a person.
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"With the ropes of earthling man I kept drawing them, with the cords of love, so that I became to them as those lifting off a yoke on their jaws, and gently I brought food to each one." - Hosea 11:4 |
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A_C
House Cat
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: The holy spirit is a person? |
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| Sibbechai wrote: | Hello, I'm new to this forum, this is my first post. I'm from the Netherlands so my English might not always be perfectly correct. I apoligize in advance :-).
To me it's very interesting to realise that in John 14:16, 17 and 16:7, 8, 13, 14, where in the English language the pronouns "he" and "him" are used in reference to "the counselor/comforter/helper" or "the spirit of truth", the apostle John in the original Greek language actually used the neuter pronoun "it", because the Greek word for "spirit" is neuter. This refutes the assertion that this spirit is a person. |
trinitarian bias slipped deceitfully into the King James Bible because the Bible is lacking any legitimate trinitarian doctrine, so they had to create some by trickery.
English translations of the Bible before the KJV rendered the beginning of John 1: "All things were made through it and without it nothing was made that was made. In it was life…." Similarly a number of modern German and French translations describe the word as "it," not "him." There is no reason, therefore, to think of the word as a Person, until it becomes embodied in Jesus in John 1:14. Remember that "word" in the Hebrew Bible, the background to the New Testament, never meant a Person in all of its 1455 occurrences. There is no indication in the Old Testament that the Messiah would be a person before his conception. The very opposite was taught: The Messiah would expressly not be God, but a unique, final "prophet like Moses," coming into being from a family in Israel (see Deut. 18:15-19; Acts 3:22; 7:37).
Cheers! |
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Sibbechai
Tadpole
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| A_C wrote: | | There is no reason, therefore, to think of the word as a Person, until it becomes embodied in Jesus in John 1:14. Remember that "word" in the Hebrew Bible, the background to the New Testament, never meant a Person in all of its 1455 occurrences. There is no indication in the Old Testament that the Messiah would be a person before his conception. |
Well, this new subject brought up seems to be a bit off-topic in this discussion about the holy spirit, but don't you agree that if you investigate the following Bible texts honestly within their context, they make known that Jesus Christ actually had a pre-human existence as the "only-begotten son" from God?
John 1:14; 3:16; 6:38; 8:23,58; 17:5; 1 John 4:9.
Especially the following of those texts are unmistakably clear in my opinion:
(John 8:58) Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
(John 17:5) So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
So the life of the person who came to be known as Jesus Christ didn't start here on earth, according to himself.
This is being confirmed by other Bible lyrics which identifies Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) or "the beginning of the creation by God" (Rev. 1:1; 3:14).
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"With the ropes of earthling man I kept drawing them, with the cords of love, so that I became to them as those lifting off a yoke on their jaws, and gently I brought food to each one." - Hosea 11:4 |
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Sibbechai
Tadpole
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| A_C wrote: | As he himself said, "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42).
(WRESTED SCRIPTURES) |
One can only "sent" somebody who already exists... 
_________________
"With the ropes of earthling man I kept drawing them, with the cords of love, so that I became to them as those lifting off a yoke on their jaws, and gently I brought food to each one." - Hosea 11:4 |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Sibbechai wrote: | | One can only "sent" somebody who already exists... |
An excellent point. When, according to scripture, was Jesus brought into existence?
John the Baptist was also sent from God (John 1:6). When, according to scripture, was John brought into existence?
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Sibbechai
Tadpole
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mattathias, this was just a casual remark trying to be a bit smart () after having given some biblical proof of the pre-human existence of Jesus in the reply before the one you quote.
| Mattathias wrote: | | When, according to scripture, was Jesus brought into existence? |
I answered that:
| Sibbechai wrote: | | This is being confirmed by other Bible lyrics which identifies Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) or "the beginning of the creation by God" (Rev. 1:1; 3:14). |
| Mattathias wrote: | | John the Baptist was also sent from God (John 1:6). When, according to scripture, was John brought into existence? |
When a seed from Zacharias amalgamated with an egg from Elisabeth around the year 3 B.C. Indeed John 1:6 states: "There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God". John the Baptist wasn't sent down from heaven unlike Jesus, but I gladly admit my final remark wasn't the best part of my argumentation in favour of the pre-human existence of Jesus. Biblical reasoning always is...
Jesus: "because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38)
_________________
"With the ropes of earthling man I kept drawing them, with the cords of love, so that I became to them as those lifting off a yoke on their jaws, and gently I brought food to each one." - Hosea 11:4 |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Sibbechai wrote: | | This is being confirmed by other Bible lyrics which identifies Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) or "the beginning of the creation by God" (Rev. 1:1; 3:14). |
Thanks. I understand these verses to be addressing the new creation. I think the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke describe the method/time/place that YHWH brought Jesus into existence.
| Quote: | | When a seed from Zacharias amalgamated with an egg from Elisabeth around the year 3 B.C. Indeed John 1:6 states: "There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God". John the Baptist wasn't sent down from heaven unlike Jesus, but I gladly admit my final remark wasn't the best part of my argumentation in favour of the pre-human existence of Jesus. Biblical reasoning always is... |
I agree with your view on the timing for John the Baptist being brought into existence.
I don't see any difference between Jesus being sent by YHWH and John the Baptist being sent by YHWH. It is clear to me that you place a great deal of emphasis on the "come down from heaven" phrase in regard to Jesus. While I understand how the phrase could indicate a literal preexistence, I don't believe that it does.
Two verses in James contain "coming down from above" language that appears to be figurative. Both passages weigh heavily in my mind when considering that the same language is applied to Jesus.
"Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights..." (James 1:17 NASB).
"This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic." (James 3:15 NASB).
The OT parallel that Jesus himself used (John 6:31-33) is the manna that YHWH "rained down from heaven" (Exodus 16:3) as food for the Israelites.
Jesus is YHWH's gift to mankind.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Sibbechai
Tadpole
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mattathias, thank you for your reply. For me it's a bit hard though to understand why a truthloving person with a serious respect for God and the infallibility of the Bible would maintain in questioning the pre-human existance of the person who was given the name Jesus after his appearance on earth for any longer - after reading the scriptures given with an open heart and mind. I mean, I have no problem with allowing anyone to believe whatever he or she wants in this matter, but to me, if I read the Bible unbiased, it seems to be so overwhelming clear that the holy scriptures do speak of the pre-human existance of Jesus Christ, as well as his post-human existance, that I just don't get the point of repudiating this. Maybe you can clarify?
Is it correct that you seriously believe that the statements in John 8:23, 58 and John 17:5 are meant 'just figurative' as well?
(John 8:23) So he went on to say to them: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world."
(John 8:58) Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."
(John 17:5) "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was."
Peace,
Sibbechai
_________________
"With the ropes of earthling man I kept drawing them, with the cords of love, so that I became to them as those lifting off a yoke on their jaws, and gently I brought food to each one." - Hosea 11:4 |
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