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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | Since the Scriptures point to the Deity of Christ, this must be reconciled with the Onenes Of God. |
The scriptures point to the deity of only one person - the Father.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Matthias,
I guess this is where we disagree.
JB |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | I guess this is where we disagree. |
True. The question is, why?
Rightly or wrongly, I view all scripture (OT & NT) through the prism of Jewish unitary monotheism. You don't. The result is predictable and by no means surprising.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus is the Father |
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| PentecostalFire wrote: | | 6. In John 14:7 Jesus told His disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." Upon hearing this statement, Philip requested, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us" (John 14:8). In other words, he asked that Jesus show them the Father and then they would be satisfied. Jesus' answer was, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake" (John 14:9-11). This statement goes far beyond a relationship of agreement; it can be viewed as nothing less that the claim of Christ to be the Father manifested in flesh. Like many people today, Philip had not comprehended that the Father is an invisible Spirit and that the only way a person could ever see Him would be through the person of Jesus Christ. |
I think the principle of agency satisfactorily explains how seeing one person (the Son) is equivalent to seeing another person (the Father). To say that a son is his own father is to say that words have no meaning.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Matthias,
You said:
| Quote: | | Rightly or wrongly, I view all scripture (OT & NT) through the prism of Jewish unitary monotheism. You don't. The result is predictable and by no means surprising. |
I am forced into interpreting scriptures from a Greek perspective and I believe that things are seen differently when viewed that way. I clearly see NT teachings as clearly supporting Christ's Deity. As a result we do have differences. But hey we can draw swords again someday.
God Bless
JB |
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doctrellor
Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989
Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Once again a trinitarian falls .. but at least this excuse was interesting .. "I am forced to look at things from a Greek viewpoint."
Well, maybe if the trinitarians would look at the history and culture of the times from a Hebrew viewpoint, it might solve a few things ...
But we know that aint gonna happen ..
I guess it's easier to make excuses than to dig deep at the culture and mindset and history of the times, and possibly find out that the trinitarian doctrine is bogus ..
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | I am forced into interpreting scriptures from a Greek perspective and I believe that things are seen differently when viewed that way. |
The Greek and Hebraic perspectives are not compatible with one another. I agree with you that they lead to entirely different conclusions.
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Matthias,
You said:
| Quote: | | The Greek and Hebraic perspectives are not compatible with one another. I agree with you that they lead to entirely different conclusions. |
I am working on that idea this week. Will be back with thoughts on this idea.
JB
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | I am working on that idea this week. Will be back with thoughts on this idea. |
Why not start a new thread on that subject? (I think it's too important an issue to get buried in this one.)
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus is the Father |
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| PentecostalFire wrote: | | 7. Jesus said, "The Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38). |
Jesus also said,
| Quote: | | Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. (John 15:4 NASB) |
If the passage in John 10:38 proves that Jesus is the Father, then by that same logic, since he abides in believers and believers abide in him, would we not also be forced to conclude that all believers are the Father?
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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John writes in I John 2:24,
| Quote: | | As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. (NASB) |
This sounds to me like John is speaking of two separate persons. If John had thought that the Son is also the Father, this would have been a great opportunity for him to say so - "...you also abide in the Son who is the Father" would have made an argument for Modalism based on this verse much more plausible.
Jesus says in John 14:23,
| Quote: | | If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. (NASB) |
This sounds to me like Jesus is speaking of himself and of someone other than himself (the Father) - two persons, as indicated by the plural pronoun "we" and the adjective "our."
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Jesus is the Father |
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| PentecostalFire wrote: | | 8. Jesus promised to be the Father of all overcomers (Revelation 21:6-7). |
The real issue here is whether or not the speaker in this passage of scripture is the Father or the Son.
I agree with the Trinitarian scholar David Aune that the Father Himself (the Lord God, not Jesus - who is the Lord Messiah) speaks twice in Revelation.
| Quote: | | The second oracle is attributed to the "Lord God" (who speaks just twice in Revelation, here [1:8] and in the climactic scene in 21:5-8)... |
(Revelation, Word Biblical Commentary, Vol. 52A, p. 59)
And on Revelation 21:5,
| Quote: | | It is clear that the short speech in vv 5-8 is attributed to God himself and is the only such speech in Revelation, with the exception of the brief self-disclosure in 1:8. |
(Revelation, Word Biblical Commentary, Vol. 52C, p. 1125)
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T.L. Means (Thomas)
Kitten
Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: Logos - Rhema |
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| JB wrote: | | Since the Scriptures point to the Deity of Christ, this must be reconciled with the Oneness Of God. |
I agree with your statement and to back up my support to you here is a Theological thought:
Allister E. McGrath wrote in his book on Theology that the Old Testement preached the Father openly and the Son more obsurely. The New Testement revealed the Son, and hinted at the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Now the Spirit dwells in us, and is revealed more clearly to us. It was not proper to preach the Son openly, while the divinity the of Father had not yet been admitted. Nor was it proper to accept the Holy Spirit before [the divinity of] the Son had been acknowledged... Instead, by gradual advances and...partial ascents, we should move forward and increase in clarity, so that the light of the Trinity should shine. END OF QUOTE
The problem within some peoples monotheism belief is its non-acceptance of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Those who associate themselves with or claim stake to such belief that Christ is not divine will find themselves in the Great Tribulation.
The Father is the Father, Creator of Heaven and Earth, Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Divine) and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God (Divine). For God is Spirit and they who worship Him (Father) must worship Him (Father) in Spirit (Holy Spirit) and Truth (Jesus Christ as the Son of God-Savior). |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Logos - Rhema |
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| T.L. Means (Thomas) wrote: | | The problem within some peoples monotheism belief is its non-acceptance of the divinity of Jesus Christ. |
I suppose that may be so. Personally, I assert the divinity of the Lord Messiah (Jesus) and the deity of the Lord God (YHWH).
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Logos - Rhema |
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| T.L. Means (Thomas) wrote: | | The Father is the Father, Creator of Heaven and Earth... |
This is plainly taught in scripture yet most Trinitarians (as well as Arians and Modalists) believe that the heavens and the earth were created by the Son, rather than the Father.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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