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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing |
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OK, Let's hear what you've got to say about this subject.
I've never gotten into it before, yet on the website, it seems to be a big deal, to some people.
OK, my 1st question is:So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ?
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ?
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | OK, my 1st question is:So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ?
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ? |
I don't speak for all non-Trinitarians but I don't think this Bible verse is "wrong". Assuming that it is genuine (there is debate on this point among scholars), what does it mean? There is no example in the NT of anyone baptizing with this formula. (Naughty Apostles?)
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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james
Tiger
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 855
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Those who oppose the trinity doctrine say that in Acts 2:38 Peter explains what the NAME (singular)is in Matt 28:19 (Matt list the titles, for Father, Son, Holy Ghost are titles, not names)Ever notice NOONE in the book of Acts nor anywhere in the whole bible was baptized after Matt 28:19 but always in the 'NAME' of the Lord Jesus Christ, according to Matt 28:19 and Acts 2:38. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Eusebius makes this very point, James. I'll try to look it up and post it.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | Those who oppose the trinity doctrine say that in Acts 2:38 Peter explains what the NAME (singular)is in Matt 28:19 (Matt list the titles, for Father, Son, Holy Ghost are titles, not names)Ever notice NOONE in the book of Acts nor anywhere in the whole bible was baptized after Matt 28:19 but always in the 'NAME' of the Lord Jesus Christ, according to Matt 28:19 and Acts 2:38. |
Yeah, I ran into a group a few years ago, who were dogmatic about using the name Jesus Christ ONLY in their Baptismal services.
When I showed them Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
They went all ballistic on me...saying that that Bible verse was wrong.
Anytime I see a person or group ignore any Scripture, to favor another.....I know they don't want to know anything but their own ideas.
Because there will always be Scriptures that seem to contradict other Scriptures.
And the only way to find the truth, is to take both seemingly contradictory Scripture verses, and make them blend together harmoniously.
It can be done.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing |
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[quote="Mattathias"] | Silver Surfer wrote: | OK, my 1st question is:So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ?
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ? |
| Quote: |
I don't speak for all non-Trinitarians but I don't think this Bible verse is "wrong". Assuming that it is genuine (there is debate on this point among scholars), what does it mean? There is no example in the NT of anyone baptizing with this formula. (Naughty Apostles?) |
If Jesus said it, I believe it !!!!
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded, and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described. But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, Go and make disciples of all the nations in my name. |
(Eusebius, Church History, Book III, Chapter 5, Section 2)
Link
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | If Jesus said it, I believe it !!!! |
Super. What do you believe he meant and why did the Apostles not obey him if, in fact, this is what he commanded?
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | If Jesus said it, I believe it !!!! |
Super. What do you believe he meant and why did the Apostles not obey him if, in fact, this is what he commanded? |
I believe that they did.
The Bible does not record each and every detail of every disciple's movements.
By what Jesus said: 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
.....is I think Jesus wants people to know that the whole GodHead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is involved in the Plan of Salvation, for mankind.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | I believe that they did.
The Bible does not record each and every detail of every disciple's movements. |
But when the Bible does record how they they baptized it was "in the name of Jesus". You haven't addressed why they disobeyed Jesus' command in these instances.
And then there is the evidence from Eusebius to consider.
| Quote: | | ...I think Jesus wants people to know that the whole GodHead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is involved in the Plan of Salvation, for mankind. |
The same Jesus who said that only the Father was truly God? The same Jesus who agreed with the Jewish scribe that the greatest commandment is the unitarian creed of Judaism?
The Jesus of the Bible is a Jewish unitary monotheist. You will need to look to the post-biblical creeds to find the Trinitarian Jesus.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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doctrellor
Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989
Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | OK, Let's hear what you've got to say about this subject.
I've never gotten into it before, yet on the website, it seems to be a big deal, to some people.
OK, my 1st question is:So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ?
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ? |
Here is from the "experts"
However, it must be remembered that we have no known manuscripts that were written in the first, second or even the third centuries. There is a gap of over three hundred years between when Matthew wrote his epistle and our earliest manuscript copies.
No single early manuscript is free from textual error. Some have unique errors; other manuscripts were copied extensively and have the same errors. Again, our aim is to examine all of the evidence and determine as closely as possible what the original words were.
Considering the fact that all of the scriptures from Genesis thru Malachi make no reference to a Trinitarian God, and that from Mark thru Revelation we also find no evidence for a Trinity, we must consider the possibility that all the existing manuscripts may have one or more textual errors in common.
According to the Biblical historian Dr. C. R. Gregory:
The Greek manuscripts of the text of the New Testament were often altered by the scribes, who put into them the readings which were familiar to them, and which they held to be the right readings.
More on these changes will be addressed later. Another writer said:
A great step forward is taken when we propose to give manuscripts weight, not according to their age, but according to the age of the text which they contain. By proving how honest a text is rather than strictly how old it is provides us with a text which has content that is truly ancient. When we verify that a text is older than the fourth century, that it was current in the third or better still the second century, we still cannot be sure that it has not been altered. We need to try to verify that the text is pure text. There is reason to believe that the very grossest errors that have ever deformed the text had entered it already in the second century. What we wish to ascertain, however, is not merely an ancient text but an accurate text.
Of course, “the grossest errors,” that this writer is referring to are not doctrinal errors, but the errors in the text itself. Not surprisingly tho, some of these textual corruptions occurred simultaneously with the respective doctrinal changes as they were being introduced in the early church. This historic falling away will be addressed later.
Just as with the manuscripts, all extant Versions, containing the end of Matthew, also contain the Triune name. But, of course, there is more to be considered than what is present in a document. One must also take into consideration what is absent. Again quoting from the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics: “In all extant versions the text is found in the traditional [Trinitarian] form ...though it must be remembered that the best manuscripts, both of the African Old Latin and of the Old Syriac Versions are defective at this point.”
F.C. Conybeare further elaborated:
In the only codices which would be even likely to preserve an older reading, namely the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest Latin Manuscript, the pages are gone which contained the end of Matthew.
So then, though all early Versions contain the traditional Triune name in Matthew 28:19, the earliest of these Versions do not contain the verse at all. And curiously, not due to omission, but due to removal! We can not be certain of the motives why these pages were destroyed, but for the sake of our study we are now compelled to consult the early historical writings
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Here is my take on it ...
That verse, in fact, the whole ending of Mattew is bogus, and a later addition to Matthew in the 300's ...which is the 4th century
SUMMARY: Why isn't it taken into consideration, because it is a bald face lie written 3 centuries after the original was written.
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Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement! |
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james
Tiger
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 855
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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SS,
| Quote: | And the only way to find the truth, is to take both seemingly contradictory Scripture verses, and make them blend together harmoniously.
It can be done. |
This is what Acts 2:38 does for Matt 28:19. It explains harmoniously why all in the book of Acts are baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
For there seemingly are only 3 choices that I see concerning these 2 scriptures:
1 - Jesus had it wrong and Peter had it right. (We definitly know this to be untrue)
2 - Jesus had it right and Peter, being full of the holy ghost did it wrong. (We know this also to be untrue)
3 - Peter had the revelation that the 'NAME' of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost that Jesus spoke of in Matt 28:19 is the Lord Jesus Christ as Peter spoke in Acts 2:38.
Father - Lord
Son - Jesus
Holy Ghost - Christ (which Christ simply means anointed one, we are anointed when we have the Holy Ghost) |
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doctrellor
Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989
Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Then your obviously ignoring history ...
ya can't just fluff away 300 years of nothing, and then just say "oh, here it is now, in Matthew!"
That is fraud of the highest degree when your adding to the word of god. Your then giving the Atheists and agnostics a pebble to disregard the word when you pass this garbage off as credible!
But to trinitarians, I guess that so long as it's in there (300 years after the fact), then it must be all good ...
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Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement! |
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james
Tiger
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 855
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Do we stand on what history dictates when those dictates contradict the bible?
The bible is clear all were baptised in the bible in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and I have never read in history where anyone was baptised any other way, until after the Nicene Council around 325 A.D. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | OK, Let's hear what you've got to say about this subject.
I've never gotten into it before, yet on the website, it seems to be a big deal, to some people.
OK, my 1st question is:So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ?
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
So...those who oppose the 'trinity' teaching say that this Bible verse, is wrong ? |
It does mention the three but doesn't say anything about them being a Trinity, that they add-up to compose themselves to a God, or that they are God Persons. If these are the three building blocks of the Trinity Jesus Christ had an excellent oppertunity to say so. Fact is, he didn't. So I think we should suppose what he meant and focus what he did mean.
We cannot belive just in the Father alone as the Jews do but also in Jesus Christ whom God the Father sent in sacrifice for our salvation. (John 3:16)
And in God's holy spirit which influences us to emulate a new Christian personality. (Galatians 5:22-26) |
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