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Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing

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doctrellor
Big Lion

Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989

Location: Twin Cities

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject:

Silver Surfer wrote:

Quote:

Sounds like a history started by bad prophecy .. and not biblical truth and early church historical/cultural studies .. now does it ...

Really ?

So you deny that Miller was a false prophet?

Even Ellen G White had some interesting things to say ...

What Is The "Greatest" Commandment
In a different vision, EGW stated that the Sabbath is the "greatest" of the ten commandments:

The pope has changed the day of rest from the seventh to the first day. He has thought to change the very commandment that was given to cause man to remember his Creator. He has thought to change the greatest commandment in the decalogue and thus make himself equal with God, or even exalt himself above God (Early Writings, p. 65).
In contrast, the Lord Jesus Himself tells us something different about the "greatest" commandment:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments (Mt. 22:36-40).
When Jesus was asked the above question, it would have been the perfect time for the Him to state that the Sabbath command was the greatest command if it was. However, not only didn't He say that, the Lord clearly stated the (first and) greatest command was something else! So again, in contrast to God's message, E. G. White has clearly declared something different.

Those Who Receive The Mark Of The Beast
According to Ellen G. White:

The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false Sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God (The Great Controversy, 1950, p. 605).
In other words, EGW stated that ONLY Saturday Sabbatarians will not receive "the mark of the beast." If you worship God on Sunday, like the early Christians did (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor.16:2), then you WILL receive the mark of the beast, according to EGW!

"In A Few Months"
Ellen G. White also related what she says occurred on June 27, 1850:

Some of us have had time to get the truth and to advance step by step, and every step we have taken has given us strength to take the next. But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months. They will also have much to unlearn and much to learn again. Those who would not receive the mark of the beast and his image when the decree goes forth, must have now to say, Nay, we will not regard the institution of the beast (Early Writings, p.67).
Since much more than a few months have gone by since 1850 and the decree to receive the mark of the beast has not been issued, we know this was a definite false prophecy by Ellen G. White. What does Scripture say about this?

You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him (Deut. 18:21,22).
According to the Bible, E. G. White was, therefore, a false prophetess. What did Jesus say about false prophets? He warned us to watch out for them for they are deceivers that have the appearance of a Christian:

... and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people (Mt. 24:11).
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves (Mt. 7:15).

William Miller Rejected SDA Sabbath Teaching!
Ellen G. White was not consistent with her own vision though, for even William Miller turned from keeping the Sabbath, yet she said he would not be held responsible and upon his death entered the heavenly Canaan:

At the time of the disappointment on October 22, 1844, Miller was worn and ill. He depended largely on his younger associates who stood with him in proclaiming the Advent message. They led him to reject the Sabbath truth as it came to his attention soon after the Disappointment. For this they, and not William Miller, will be held responsible (Early Writings, p. 303).
So also, I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth (Early Writings, p. 258).
One must ask from these two EGW revelations: Is God a respecter of persons? The Bible clearly teaches NO (Acts 10:34). But if the apostate sabbathkeeper, William Miller, would not be held responsible, as other apostate sabbathkeepers would, then either: (1) God is a respecter of persons, which is impossible or (2) EGW was not spreading God's truth to people!

There is of course more to read @
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/white.htm
_________________
Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement!

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject:

Silver Surfer wrote:

I believe exactly what 1 John 5:7 says.

I understand that you do. It is widely known that the verse, as rendered in KJV, is spurious. I was asking why you reject the evidence.
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject:

SilverSurfer. The link is to a paper that discusses the problem with the KJV rendering of I John 5:7. The Johannine Comma What do you disagree with? _________________ "All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal

Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World

Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject:

doctrellor wrote:

So you deny that Miller was a false prophet?

It must be remembered that William Miller was not alone in his preaching the message that he did.
William Millers' Contempaires
Those who taught the 1844 message, of the Judgment time of God (Daniel 8:14):
#1.) Williams Miller, of New York State.
#2.) A. J. Krupp, of Philadelphia.
#3.) David McGregor, of Falmouth, Mass.
#4.) Edward Irving, of England.
#5.) Archibald Mason, of Scotland.

#6.) W. E. Davis, of South Carolina.

#7.) Joseph Wolff, who labored in various parts of Africa.
Another inrteresting note of Joseph Wolff...was that He taught the entire Congress of the USA, the same message William Miller taught.

#8.) Alexander Campbell, in his debate with R. Dale Owen, 1829.
#9.) Capt. A. Landers of Liverpool, England.
#10.) Leonard Heinrich Kebler, of Stuttgard, Germany.

#11.) Laucunza, of Spain, in his book, "Ben Ezra".
#12.) Hentzepter, of Hague, Holland.

#13.) Dr. Capadose, of Amsterdam, Holland.
#14.) Rau, of Bavaria.
#15.) Priests of Tartary, in 1821.
#16.) Bible students of Yemen, in the book called, "Seera".

#17.) Hengstenberg, in another part of Germany.
#18.) Russians, on the Caspian Sea.
#19.) Molokaners, on the shores of the Baltic Sea.
And, there may be more, yet unrecorded of.

*****************************************
Comments:
"In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established", (2 Corinthians 13:1).
Below is the Bible Prophecy these men, throughout the world, were proclaiming.......
Daniel 8:14 "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed".
And, what does God says about any prophecy ?
2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

QUESTION: 'no private interpretation'.......and how many men were giving the 2300 day prophecy ?
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Quote:

Even Ellen G White had some interesting things to say ...

What Is The "Greatest" Commandment
In a different vision, EGW stated that the Sabbath is the "greatest" of the ten commandments:

And that would be out of harmony with?????
20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.

20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Quote:

The pope has changed the day of rest from the seventh to the first day.

As it is written in Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

[quote]
He has thought to change the very commandment that was given to cause man to remember his Creator. He has thought to change the greatest commandment in the decalogue and thus make himself equal with God, or even exalt himself above God (Early Writings, p. 65).
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Quote:

In contrast, the Lord Jesus Himself tells us something different about the "greatest" commandment:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'(Mt. 22:36-40).

Again, you think that that is out of harmony with..... Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:
58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

Quote:

When Jesus was asked the above question, it would have been the perfect time for the Him to state that the Sabbath command was the greatest command if it was. However, not only didn't He say that, the Lord clearly stated the (first and) greatest command was something else! So again, in contrast to God's message, E. G. White has clearly declared something different.

Here is a definition of a true speaker for God:

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World

Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject:

Mattathias wrote:

SilverSurfer.

The link is to a paper that discusses the problem with the KJV rendering of I John 5:7.

The Johannine Comma

What do you disagree with?

Well, to tell you the truth, I looked it over rather quickly.

BUT, I will tell you this.
Every Christian is going to be Judged on what is written in the Bible.
And while it may not be free entirely from man-made errors...it is till called the word of God.

And if we make an effort to pray to God to understand the Bible, as we read it.
God will help us in the understanding of things that are now, hard to understand.

Human language is totally inaccurate to portray God's thoughts, But it is the best we have for now.

And God will judge us according to what Knowledge we have and put into practice.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject:

Silver Surfer wrote:

Well, to tell you the truth, I looked it over rather quickly.

Thank you for telling me the truth. It sounds as if you are saying that it doesn't make any difference to you that the passage is spurious. I don't think it's wise to believe something that, as Metzger says, has "no right to stand in the New Testament".
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal

Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World

Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject:

Mattathias wrote:

Silver Surfer wrote:

Well, to tell you the truth, I looked it over rather quickly.

I don't place absolute faith in just one Bible verse.

I usually llike to find several verses on the same subject matter, to get the idea that God wants me to have.

As Scriptures says: out of 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject:

Silver Surfer wrote:

I don't place absolute faith in just one Bible verse.

This particular verse has been tampered with.
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal

Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World

Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject:

Mattathias wrote:

Silver Surfer wrote:

I don't place absolute faith in just one Bible verse.

This particular verse has been tampered with.

I see.

Well, I still have other Bible verses I can rely upon which tells me basicly the same thing.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject:

Silver Surfer wrote:

I see.

That's good enough for me. Smile

Quote:

Well, I still have other Bible verses I can rely upon which tells me basicly the same thing.

I don't think there are any other verses that support the same thing that I John 5:7 KJV asserted but that's a discussion for another day, perhaps.
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal

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