Maybe I Don't Understand this 'Trinity' Thing

Mattathias · Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject:

James.

I'm also posting a link from an online source that I've used as a handout when teaching Hermeneutics. You might find it useful (as I have.)

Figurative Language in the Bible
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Mattathias · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:12 am Post subject:

Silver Surfer · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:23 am Post subject:

I now have this 'trinity' thing resolved.

I, as an SDA, have nothing in common with the Roman Catholic Trinity, as they understand it.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Mattathias · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject:

Silver Surfer · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject:

doctrellor · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject:

doctrellor · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject:

Npw, here is the Creed of the trinity that most trinitarians hold to, and is the Atanasian Creed, which was supposedly written by Athanasius himself, but the form it is seen as, is roughly from 600 AD

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
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I won't poke fun, but Big Ape tried to say I was unsaved due to my denial of the trinity ...

Which a Catholic Pope came up with in 492 AD ...

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Now, here is the Nicene Creed which is an earlier (and more known form) from 325 AD

*note, the edited form of the Nicene creed actually is from the Council in 381, and does show some "advancements" from the earlier Nicene version of 325

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];
who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.
[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable' — they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]
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doctrellor · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject:

Here is the Nicene Creed from the COnstantinople Council in 381

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

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Notice how the RC's are already tweaking it .. moving stuff around, adding tidbits here and there ...

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SUMMARY

So SS, which Trinity Creedal Statement do you hold to

325 (early Nicene), 381 (Later Nicene) or 600 (Athanasian)
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Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement!

Silver Surfer · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:

doctrellor · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject:

The whole point of the argument SS is that your belief in the trinity means that your following a RCC doctrine.

It's as if your head is on fire, but your so focused on the keyboard that your totally ignoring the fact that your head is on fire

since it's obvious that your a trinitarian, just tell me which of the 3 creeds you follow?
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Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement!

Silver Surfer · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject:

Silver Surfer · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject:

Mattathias · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject:

Mattathias · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: