 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: A Simple Question |
 |
|
| What evidence is there that the organization is what it claims to be? What does it claim to be? What evidence is there that the Watchtower is Jehovah God's organization? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 152
Location: Wylie
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Daystar wrote: | | What evidence is there that the organization is what it claims to be? What does it claim to be? What evidence is there that the Watchtower is Jehovah God's organization? |
The same evidence every group that thinks that they are the ONLY group destain for heaven. NOTHING!! Just more word of mouth. All groups such as these believes they understand the mind of God and in the end they crumble like the ones before them. Each man is responsible for his or her own salvation. You need not belong in any group to love God, or recieve salvation from God. Its a free gift he gives to anyone who truly calls on his name.
BTW I am not talking about just any one group out there because there are many that believe that way. I go to a church that believes that Jesus is the only way not a group of people. We believe we share salvation with many people in the world not just our church. We are but a part of the body not the whole body. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| dabmci wrote: | | I go to a church that believes that Jesus is the only way not a group of people. We believe we share salvation with many people in the world not just our church. We are but a part of the body not the whole body. |
dabmci, that was so well said. I try getting that across on this Witness forum and folks either have trouble wrapping their brain around it, or think I'm talking against being part of a church and advocating being a lone ranger. You hit it on the head!
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| dabmci wrote: | | The same evidence every group that thinks that they are the ONLY group destain for heaven. NOTHING!! Just more word of mouth. All groups such as these believes they understand the mind of God and in the end they crumble like the ones before them. Each man is responsible for his or her own salvation. You need not belong in any group to love God, or recieve salvation from God. Its a free gift he gives to anyone who truly calls on his name. |
I don't think that it is entirely fair to say that the JWs think that they are the only group destined for heaven. In fact they are the only group that teach what the Bible actually says; that there are only going to be a few to go to heaven and most of that group were there before the JWs existed. Correct me if I am wrong.
I do agree with you regarding personal responsibility, and also that that doesn't necessarily exclude those who belong to a group.
| dabmci wrote: | | BTW I am not talking about just any one group out there because there are many that believe that way. I go to a church that believes that Jesus is the only way not a group of people. We believe we share salvation with many people in the world not just our church. We are but a part of the body not the whole body. |
Then what is the evidence that this body makes any claim that may be the same as the ones I asked of the JWs?
Their teachings? I certainly wouldn't agree with that. Why would God have anything to do with those that teach pagan mythology and fables such as hell, trinity, cross, immortal soul and much more that contradicts the teachings he set forth in the Bible? Because they think that is okay and the way it is? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 152
Location: Wylie
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Daystar wrote: |
I don't think that it is entirely fair to say that the JWs think that they are the only group destined for heaven. In fact they are the only group that teach what the Bible actually says; that there are only going to be a few to go to heaven and most of that group were there before the JWs existed. Correct me if I am wrong. |
I did not say just the JW I stated that they have the same evidence as all groups that believe they are the only ones going to heaven.
| dabmci wrote: | | BTW I am not talking about just any one group out there because there are many that believe that way. I go to a church that believes that Jesus is the only way not a group of people. We believe we share salvation with many people in the world not just our church. We are but a part of the body not the whole body. |
| Daystar wrote: | | Then what is the evidence that this body makes any claim that may be the same as the ones I asked of the JWs? |
Pick any group you like that has a belief system that tells them they are the only ones that knows the truth. They will take the same scripture the JW uses and make it fit there doctrine. Any gorup out there that believes they have God in there back pockets and pulls him out the bash others is wrong. They are doing the same things the Religious groups were doing when Jesus walked this earth.
| Daystar wrote: | | Their teachings? I certainly wouldn't agree with that. Why would God have anything to do with those that teach pagan mythology and fables such as hell, trinity, cross, immortal soul and much more that contradicts the teachings he set forth in the Bible? Because they think that is okay and the way it is? |
The same reason God looked down on you me and anyone else on the forum. The same reason God has not given up on humanity. LOVE God show us the truth. Like I said before it is God who draws us to himself not a group. There is only one way and that is thru Christ. We meaning humanity does not have all the answer and I don't believe God has shown us everything. We are leaning everyday. I would never put myself in a position to ever say I or the group I am in are the only ones that know Christ. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| dabmci wrote: | | I did not say just the JW I stated that they have the same evidence as all groups that believe they are the only ones going to heaven. |
But that isn't entirely true. They believe that only a few of them are going to heaven and many have gone to heaven before they came to be. They believe that most of them will be resurrected to paradise on earth.
| dabmci wrote: | | Pick any group you like that has a belief system that tells them they are the only ones that knows the truth. They will take the same scripture the JW uses and make it fit there doctrine. Any gorup out there that believes they have God in there back pockets and pulls him out the bash others is wrong. They are doing the same things the Religious groups were doing when Jesus walked this earth. |
First of all I have never heard of any group of people or individuals who didn't think that they had the truth. They certainly wouldn't operate on the notion that they were the only ones that didn't have the truth, would they? Secondly the JWs are the only group that I know of that removed the pagan teachings such as Christmas, Easter, Immortal Soul, Hell, Trinity, Rapture, Cross etc. from their teachings and went back to a more scripturally accurate teaching so only they can come close to actually having the truth, and thirdly Jesus did the same thing to the religious groups of his day that the JWs do now. The difference between Jesus and the religious leaders of his day was that he was right while they held to the traditions of men (religion). The JWs are like that compared to modern day religious leaders.
| dabmci wrote: | | The same reason God looked down on you me and anyone else on the forum. The same reason God has not given up on humanity. LOVE God show us the truth. Like I said before it is God who draws us to himself not a group. There is only one way and that is thru Christ. We meaning humanity does not have all the answer and I don't believe God has shown us everything. We are leaning everyday. I would never put myself in a position to ever say I or the group I am in are the only ones that know Christ. |
But how could you know Christ without having the answers? Do you believe in the pagan teachings of modern day Christianity? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 152
Location: Wylie
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Daystar wrote: | | But that isn't entirely true. They believe that only a few of them are going to heaven and many have gone to heaven before they came to be. They believe that most of them will be resurrected to paradise on earth. |
Sorry I was meaning being saved, not what they claim is the heavenly class.
| dabmci wrote: | | Pick any group you like that has a belief system that tells them they are the only ones that knows the truth. They will take the same scripture the JW uses and make it fit there doctrine. Any gorup out there that believes they have God in there back pockets and pulls him out the bash others is wrong. They are doing the same things the Religious groups were doing when Jesus walked this earth. |
| Daystar wrote: | | First of all I have never heard of any group of people or individuals who didn't think that they had the truth. They certainly wouldn't operate on the notion that they were the only ones that didn't have the truth, would they? Secondly the JWs are the only group that I know of that removed the pagan teachings such as Christmas, Easter, Immortal Soul, Hell, Trinity, Rapture, Cross etc. from their teachings and went back to a more scripturally accurate teaching so only they can come close to actually having the truth, and thirdly Jesus did the same thing to the religious groups of his day that the JWs do now. The difference between Jesus and the religious leaders of his day was that he was right while they held to the traditions of men (religion). The JWs are like that compared to modern day religious leaders. |
Again sorry I meant groups that believe they have the truth.
| dabmci wrote: | | The same reason God looked down on you me and anyone else on the forum. The same reason God has not given up on humanity. LOVE God show us the truth. Like I said before it is God who draws us to himself not a group. There is only one way and that is thru Christ. We meaning humanity does not have all the answer and I don't believe God has shown us everything. We are leaning everyday. I would never put myself in a position to ever say I or the group I am in are the only ones that know Christ. |
| Daystar wrote: | | But how could you know Christ without having the answers? |
The problem is these groups believe they have ALL answers and if you do not subscribe to everything they teach you are a pagan and are not saved. How did you come to Christ? Did someone speak to you about him? Did he lead you to him?
| Daystar wrote: | | Do you believe in the pagan teachings of modern day Christianity? |
I believe in Christ. I enjoy Christmas knowing that Jesus was not born at that time, but understanding that it matters not on the date its the person that is the focus and the person is Christ. I enjoy Easter its a chance to nationally let the world know what Easter is all about. Its called taking lemons and making lemon-aid. Turning a pagan holiday and turning it into a day to meditate on what God has done. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Daystar wrote: | | I don't think that it is entirely fair to say that the JWs think that they are the only group destined for heaven. In fact they are the only group that teach what the Bible actually says; that there are only going to be a few to go to heaven and most of that group were there before the JWs existed. Correct me if I am wrong. |
dabmci, careful when talking about salvation wth the Witnesses. Going to heaven and being saved are not always the same thing to a Witness. They believe in a class who will be saved but live on the new earth, not heaven. Most mainstream Christians simply equate salvation with an afterlife in heaven.
dabmci, you have run into their "two eternal destinies and afterlifes" belief. A simple question may not be so simple when discussing theology with Witnesses.
As to your original question, if you have not received a direct answer yet, the Witnesses point to certain passages of scripture, most being prophetic, and claim that they are fulfilling them in their evangelization work around the world. Therefore they conclude that they and their organization alone is the one spoken of. They don't seem to recognize that every church believes it is fulfilling the scriptures. Witnesses denounce these claims because the other churches claiming to be fulfilling the scriptural role of the church of Jesus Christ celebrate birthdays or Christmas or believe Jesus was crucified on two perpendicular beams of wood and therefore in the opinion of the Witnesses their doctrine and practice is not pure.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Zathrus wrote: | | dabmci wrote: | | I go to a church that believes that Jesus is the only way not a group of people. We believe we share salvation with many people in the world not just our church. We are but a part of the body not the whole body. |
dabmci, that was so well said. I try getting that across on this Witness forum and folks either have trouble wrapping their brain around it, or think I'm talking against being part of a church and advocating being a lone ranger. You hit it on the head! |
I have expressed this same sentiment several times and, Zathrus is right. There are a lot of people who just can't seem to grasp the whole 'sheep from many flocks' concept.
My mother is still JW. I asked her one time about her belief that only JW's will be saved and I specifically addressed the haughty judgmental aspect and attitude of such an assertion. She refused to discuss it as it was upsetting to her.
I pointed out to TBax a while back that many churches preach the gospel in many many nations. In fact, some go much further than that and give medical aid, help with housing and build churches for their brethren in other countries.
In TBax's opinion, it doesn't matter as he believes that even though they teach from the bible, they are not teaching the word of God.
Explain that one to me.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Daystar wrote: | | Why would God have anything to do with those that teach pagan mythology and fables such as hell, trinity, cross, immortal soul and much more that contradicts the teachings he set forth in the Bible? Because they think that is okay and the way it is? |
This is an interesting question. This presumes that God will not want anything to do with religious groups, or the individuals in them, whose doctrine is not completely correct.
It's interesting that in Israel in Jesus' time, there were any number of silly teachings going around, and Jesus did not make it His mission to correct them, or to exclude those who believed them from His kingdom.
With the woman at the well, He talked about the Jews' belief that God was to be worshipped at Jerusalem where HIs temple was as opposed to the mountain where Jacob saw the Lord, and told her that God's true worshippers worship in Spirit and truth.
In response to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus was posessed of a demon (from what I understand the Jews in that time had adopted a pagan belief that the wilderness areas were inhabited by demonic spirits and they knew Jesus had spent time there in His 40 day fast) Jesus turned the focus back on Him and on the gospel, saying that Satan does not work against himself, and His works were the works of the Holy Ghost, and to blaspheme the Holy Spirit was to take a stand against the gospel which could not be retracted.
In all cases, Jesus seemed to care little what the people in Israel believed. He didn't warn them that they'd be excluded from the kingdom for their teachings, only for hardness of heart in not receiving Him as savior. With only few exceptions, He didn't correct their teachings. He only turned their attention from their religious doctrines to Himself - the Word of God in living flesh.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Zathrus wrote: | | This is an interesting question. This presumes that God will not want anything to do with religious groups, or the individuals in them, whose doctrine is not completely correct. |
No, it isn't a question of being correct, it is a question of teaching doctrine that is obviously pagan in origin and unaccepted by the teachings of early Christians.
Paul foretold that there would be a turning away from the truth and favor myth or fables (2 Timothy 4:3-4). Has this happened? Most of Christianity teach hellfire, the immortal soul, the trinity, the rapture and celebrate Christmas and Easter.
Hundreds of years before Jesus the Babylonians would gather on the alluvial plains in the spring and celebrate the fertility goddess Astarte (Ishtar etc.) by painting eggs. Her fertility symbols were the cross, the egg and the rabbit. They, the Babylonians, would gather some of the young children and bathe and dress them in new clothes and burn them in fire as a sacrifice to Astarte. The charred bones of their remains are often found in earns with symbols of Astarte (Crosses, eggs, and rabbits) painted on them.
Later in the celebrations they would make cross buns and have orgies.
These celebrations were later watered down and adopted by the church. Today the average Xian dismisses the application of these pre-Christian celebrations as harmless fun much the same as a golden calf.
| Zathrus wrote: | | It's interesting that in Israel in Jesus' time, there were any number of silly teachings going around, and Jesus did not make it His mission to correct them, or to exclude those who believed them from His kingdom. |
Really? Give an example of this from scripture, because I can recall a few times when he as well as his apostles would correct people in their wrongful thinking. He certainly never accepted any of these silly teachings.
| Zathrus wrote: | | With the woman at the well, He talked about the Jews' belief that God was to be worshipped at Jerusalem where His temple was as opposed to the mountain where Jacob saw the Lord, and told her that God's true worshippers worship in Spirit and truth. |
Which only demonstrates my point. What became of the Jews and the temple?
| Zathrus wrote: | | In response to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus was possessed of a demon (from what I understand the Jews in that time had adopted a pagan belief that the wilderness areas were inhabited by demonic spirits and they knew Jesus had spent time there in His 40 day fast) Jesus turned the focus back on Him and on the gospel, saying that Satan does not work against himself, and His works were the works of the Holy Ghost, and to blaspheme the Holy Spirit was to take a stand against the gospel which could not be retracted. |
Again, you demonstrate my point.
| Zathrus wrote: | | In all cases, Jesus seemed to care little what the people in Israel believed. He didn't warn them that they'd be excluded from the kingdom for their teachings, only for hardness of heart in not receiving Him as savior. With only few exceptions, He didn't correct their teachings. He only turned their attention from their religious doctrines to Himself - the Word of God in living flesh. |
I don't agree at all with that, it doesn't make any sense. What it seems you are trying to say is that Jesus just hung around accepting all the religious nonsense that he in fact opposed.
Most people say "What I believe is right and what you believe is wrong." To which others would respond; "Oh none of that matters. Whatever you believe is right." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Daystar wrote: | | Most people say "What I believe is right and what you believe is wrong." To which others would respond; "Oh none of that matters. Whatever you believe is right." |
Actually most people say "What I believe is right and what you believe is wrong", and others respond "No, what I believe is right and what you believe is wrong!"
Jesus says "You're missing the point if you think it's even about that. It's about Me."
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Zathrus wrote: | | Daystar wrote: | | Most people say "What I believe is right and what you believe is wrong." To which others would respond; "Oh none of that matters. Whatever you believe is right." |
Actually most people say "What I believe is right and what you believe is wrong", and others respond "No, what I believe is right and what you believe is wrong!"
Jesus says "You're missing the point if you think it's even about that. It's about Me." |
Well-stated Zathrus!
Luv 
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: A Simple Question |
|
|
| Zathrus wrote: | | Daystar wrote: | | Most people say "What I believe is right and what you believe is wrong." To which others would respond; "Oh none of that matters. Whatever you believe is right." |
Actually most people say "What I believe is right and what you believe is wrong", and others respond "No, what I believe is right and what you believe is wrong!"
Jesus says "You're missing the point if you think it's even about that. It's about Me." |
Jesus said it was about him? No. It was about the Father, not the Son. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wolvo
House Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Daystar wrote: | | What evidence is there that the organization is what it claims to be? |
None.
| Quote: | | What does it claim to be? |
Jehovah God's mouthpiece on earth, to give his followers "their food at the proper time".
| Quote: | | What evidence is there that the Watchtower is Jehovah God's organization? |
None. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
