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Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
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 Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | Q: What evidence is there that the organization is what it claims to be?
A: Apparently NONE, as no evidence has been entered into the discussion. |
I disagree. The evidence is in the teaching. The removal of pagan unscriptural doctrine. If you talk to even a Christian scholar you won't get a discussion on the Bible that could compare even with Children of the Jehovah's Witnesses. If you talk to a JW you won't get pagan teachings of Plato, Constantine, Homer, Dante, Milton and Socrates.
The tradition of Christendom may have dictated in the past thousand years and especially in the last 200 years what is Xian, but it doesn't teach the Bible and thus the teachings of God's Word.
I can't think of a better example of God's work. The JWs go from door to door preaching and teaching just as Christ and his disciples did. Not Christendom.
Christendom has a history of bloodshed that reaches to the heavens - they are a part of the world - nationalists killing in the name of God, often Christian killing Christian, the JWs are no part of the world - a world that Satan possessed and tempted Christ with, a world that Christ rejected.
The evidence indicates that Christendom took the wide gate to Harmagedon to fight blind against God's kingdom. They will lose. They are lost. Celebrating the fertility goddess Astarte who is the consort of Baal - Satan himself.
What does Christ have to do with Belial? |
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Wolvo
House Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Daystar,
If you don't mind i would like to sum up one or two things you have said.
With regards to WT changing their stance on organ transplants,
| Quote: | | Exactly. The Presiding Overseer at the time of my study had had a wife that died because she needed a liver transplant and the society revoked their ban too late for her. She died waiting for a transplant. |
Yet JW's back then claimed God was working through them. This now extends to conscience matters in relation to certain blood components. Bottom line, individuals have died for a doctrine that no longer exists.
With regards to reproach on Jehovahs name being more important than exposing a peodophile,
| Quote: | | Yes. I actually met a contract worker who was not a JW but was working with them and he knew of a case of this happening. The man tried to report him to other elders in the congregation and was surprised that they all knew of it and did nothing. I advised him to go to the police himself. |
I too personally know of this happening. The abuser still exists in the congregation, with very few, namely elders at the time knowing this.
With regards to JW's obsession with dates for Armaggedon,
| Quote: | For me, this is THE most important information. Child abuse, death and misery are not knew to the Watchtower but they are not new to any other organization of people including the Kings of the Bible days and there is no doubt that those people who did abominable things, were Jehovah God's earthly organization. The Biblical example of unfaithfulness in God's organization exceeds the same in the Watchtower so that in itself is not a scriptural reason to dismiss the Watchtower as being God's modern day earthly organization, but ... the false prophecy is reason enough.
The Bible states clearly that a false prophet is one who says something is going to happen in the name of Jehovah God and it doesn't happen and to stay away from those. The JW history of false prophets always reminded me of Hananiah (Jer. 28:1-14) |
Many JW's put their lives on hold in anticipation of this systems imminent destruction. Only to find out later that the dates the WT have given have been based on false interpretation of scripture. I personally have done this.
In support of the WT society being God's organisation you then go on to say,
| Quote: | | I disagree. The evidence is in the teaching. The removal of pagan unscriptural doctrine. If you talk to even a Christian scholar you won't get a discussion on the Bible that could compare even with Children of the Jehovah's Witnesses. If you talk to a JW you won't get pagan teachings of Plato, Constantine, Homer, Dante, Milton and Socrates |
JW's are not the only ones who have removed pagan doctrine from their teachings. One piece of evidence yes, but standing alone is not enough.
| Quote: | | I can't think of a better example of God's work. The JWs go from door to door preaching and teaching just as Christ and his disciples did. Not Christendom. |
In light of JW's false prophesying, would you say that going from house to house is an example of God's work??
In my view to answer your question one has to weigh up all of the evidence to come to a conclusion. If after weighing up all of the evidence an individual comes to the conclusion that this is God's organisation, then that is a matter ultimately between God and himself.
Over the years i have critically analysed the WT society with a view to proving it correct, nobody wants to turn their back on the very things that they were taught as a child. It was only after weighing up all of the evidence that i came to the conclusion that although many JW's are sincere, the WT society is not God's organisation. |
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Dust
Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 941
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Howdy Daystar,
You said something that I would like to highlight.....
| Daystar wrote: | | The removal of pagan unscriptural doctrine. |
Suppose, if you will, that Satan is green with envy seeing the way in-which the angels worship God. Could he or would he not have his own followers emulate that sort of worship.
Pagan worship attempts (and has attempted) to emulate true worship of God. There are many variations, some close, some not so close. Some false gods are worshipped in the same manner in which God is to be worshipped. Some religious doctrines may not be geared towards a specific false god (like Dagon), but rather are engineered (by Satan ultimately) to move people away from truth.
So, the parallels you see between some pagan practices and some Christian practices does not necessarily mean that the practice itself is pagan.....such as celebrating the birth of Jesus for example.
To not celebrate the birth of Jesus is obviously something Satan would lead folks into.
Instead, celebrating your great joy at the birth of Jesus, is visible testimony/fruit that one truly is a Christian.....
Luke 2
10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolvo wrote: | | Yet JW's back then claimed God was working through them. This now extends to conscience matters in relation to certain blood components. Bottom line, individuals have died for a doctrine that no longer exists. |
True, and very unfortunate, but the same could be said of David's rule as King.
| Wolvo wrote: | | [On Child sexual abuse] I too personally know of this happening. The abuser still exists in the congregation, with very few, namely elders at the time knowing this. |
Again, this is unfortunate, but similar sex crimes were committed by unfaithful Israelites.
| Wolvo wrote: | | Many JW's put their lives on hold in anticipation of this systems imminent destruction. Only to find out later that the dates the WT have given have been based on false interpretation of scripture. I personally have done this. |
But are they responsible for this or are you and the others having made the same mistake? I believe in personal responsibility when it comes to these types of things, which is why I didn't join. I am sorry that all of these things happened but still they are not necessarily an indication that God's earthly isn't the JWs.
| Wolvo wrote: | | JW's are not the only ones who have removed pagan doctrine from their teachings. One piece of evidence yes, but standing alone is not enough. |
I agree completely.
| Wolvo wrote: | | In light of JW's false prophesying, would you say that going from house to house is an example of God's work?? |
Good point. They are also not the only ones that do that, but they are the only ones teaching the most accurate teachings.
| Wolvo wrote: | | In my view to answer your question one has to weigh up all of the evidence to come to a conclusion. If after weighing up all of the evidence an individual comes to the conclusion that this is God's organization, then that is a matter ultimately between God and himself. |
YES! Absolutely.
| Wolvo wrote: | | Over the years i have critically analyzed the WT society with a view to proving it correct, nobody wants to turn their back on the very things that they were taught as a child. It was only after weighing up all of the evidence that i came to the conclusion that although many JW's are sincere, the WT society is not God's organization. |
There you go. Congratulations! Have you then abandoned organized religion - are you out of the frying pan and into the fire? Or do you consider yourself spiritually independent and personally responsible? |
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Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Howdy back at ya' Dust,
Baptism originated with pagan religion. Wedding rings, tombstones, wind chimes ... the names Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc. The Israelites used months in their calendars named after pagan gods like Tammuz.
These things are not a problem because either they are approved by the Bible (baptism) or they don't interfere with true and accepted worship.
Here is an example of where that begins to be problematic. The women in Jerusalem wept for Tammuz and even carved his dungy (the Bible's word not mine) idol into the the temple, much to God's disliking. What was Tammuz's idol? Tammuz originated the T shaped cross venerated by modern day Xianity. It comes from his initial the mystic Tau.
Now when Xmas comes along most people have a false sense of joy. False sense. They tell their children myths and fables - false stories (2 Timothy 4:3-4) because it makes them feel good and it is the tradition of men. Accepted by Xians only since Charles Dickens. Not long. It was considered by most to be unchristian until then. And what is Xmas, really today? Materialism, revelry, teaching children lies and greed. Children who ask themselves later as adults "Is Jesus real or like Santa?" Jesus makes us feel good like Santa. As silly as that sounds consider how you are willing to take pagan celebrations, what they have become even among Xians, and how that fits with true worship.
The people of the Bible, except for two pagans, didn't celebrate birthdays. Not even Jesus' birthday. Xmas isn't Jesus birthday, he was most likely born in the first week of October rather than the end of December. The date comes from the winter solstice, a pagan holiday. Do you advocate celebrating Jesus birthday on this pagan holiday rather than when he was most likely born? And do you not see how real knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ is effected by doing so? |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Daystar, 
I have been reading some of your posts with great interest.  I appreciate your reasonableness you display on many occasions. You mentioned in the past how you would address some of the hang ups you have regarding JW's. I have seen you defend our (JW's) beliefs on many occations. The only 2 thing I saw that you have a hang up over is the blood issue, and supposed "false prophesy". I would like to ask a few questions addressing each.
Regarding blood: Acts 15:28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication.
| Daystar wrote: | | Eating it is not the same as using it for saving lives. That is where my thinking is at now. |
Is eating and transfusing different? For instance, if a doctor told you to abstain from alchohol, are you listening to your doctor if you were to inject it directly into your bloodstream?
If your immediate life is involved does that make a scriptural principle optional?
Faith is most manifest when under trial.
Regarding prophesy:
| Daystar wrote: | | The Bible states clearly that a false prophet is one who says something is going to happen in the name of Jehovah God and it doesn't happen and to stay away from those. The JW history of false prophets always reminded me of Hananiah (Jer. 28:1-14) |
Is it your understanding that JW's claim to be "inspired prophets"? Is trying to understand scripture the same as prophesying?
Notice how Hananiah introduced his prophesy. 2 “This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said, " and then proceed to give the false prophesy. Is that how Bro. Russell approached it? Or did he use, all be it wrong, reasoning from scriptures to come to his conclusion? Do you believe those wrong expectations the society printed were direct prophesies claimed to come directly from God's mouth, or misunderstanding of prophesies in the Bible?
Again, I appreciate your reasonableness you have displayed in many of your posts.  But I would like you to consider these questions.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 941
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Daystar,
The season of Christmas commemorates and honors Christ and His arrival.....His birth. A prominate theme for those celebrating Christmas is peace on earth and good will towards men....hence the gift giving.
Luke 2
12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Now, if we disregard the above, and focus on your position, we can perhaps rest assured that we are not unwittingly partaking in paying homage to some ancient, and mostly forgotten false god(s). The problem with this however, is that this places us in the company of those who most definitely do not and would not ever pay homage to Christ and his arrival....and places us standing with those who would not want to perpetuate the sign given to us, as mentioned in Luke 2.....and standing with those who would not want to perpetuate the tidings of great joy, arising from this event, which, as the bible indicates, is to all people.
Rather than give that sort of power to these ancient false gods, I will stand with the multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 'Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, and good will toward men'. I will stand with those who perpetuate and commemorate the birth of Christ. In this manner I will not be standing with those who care not for Christ nor with those who actively fight against Him and His followers.
And....as I stand with the multitude of the heavenly host praising God for this event, which brings great joy, I pay no homage and give no power to the false gods you seem to be so concerned with.
The only power false gods would have are given to them by men, and, as I see in the rational of your last post, it's not just praise of false gods by men (such praise is harmful because it leads away from the one an only true God) that give them power, but it's fear of these false gods as well.
IMO, these false gods, whom you fear, at best have you standing outside the feast, at worst have you standing with Satan’s own.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Wolvo
House Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Is eating and transfusing different? For instance, if a doctor told you to abstain from alchohol, are you listening to your doctor if you were to inject it directly into your bloodstream? |
Like i've said before, it's almost as if TBax reads from a script,
| Awake Aug 2006 wrote: | | Some argue that this God-given restriction applies only to the eating of blood, but the word “abstain” speaks for itself. If a doctor told us to abstain from alcohol, we would hardly feel at liberty to inject it into our veins. |
| TBax wrote: | | If your immediate life is involved does that make a scriptural principle optional? |
The question really is as to whether abstaining from life saving treatment is a scriptural principle.
| TBax wrote: | Is it your understanding that JW's claim to be "inspired prophets"? Is trying to understand scripture the same as prophesying?
Notice how Hananiah introduced his prophesy. 2 “This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said, " and then proceed to give the false prophesy. Is that how Bro. Russell approached it? Or did he use, all be it wrong, reasoning from scriptures to come to his conclusion? Do you believe those wrong expectations the society printed were direct prophesies claimed to come directly from God's mouth, or misunderstanding of prophesies in the Bible?
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Watchtower 1st October 1961, an article written under the title,
Prophesying with the Loyal Organization
| Quote: | | Accordingly, the “magnificent things of God” about which to prophesy today are the things about God’s kingdom since A.D. 1914, when the Gentile Times (”the appointed times of the nations”) ended. God then caused the birth of his promised kingdom in the hands of Christ the Lord. |
Watchtower 15th November 1956 writes,
| Quote: | | Those who were added to the released remnant after 1919 were also anointed with God’s poured-out spirit to prophesy |
Holy Spirit book 1976 writes,
| Quote: | | It is now high time to ask, Who are the ones that receive what Jehovah promised to pour out on every sort of flesh? Under the driving force of that which is poured out such ones must prophesy. Their prophesying is very timely inasmuch as it is to precede and foretell the “coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.” Persons who heed such prophesying may find themselves among the escaped ones. They may be among the “survivors.” If we judge by all the circumstances of our times since 1914 C.E., the “day of Jehovah” that is ahead of us portends to be indeed “great and fear-inspiring.” Do we desire to “get away safe”? If that is our desire, then it becomes advisable for us to ‘call on the name of Jehovah,’ the One whose spirit is behind the coming new order. |
So according to their own literature, do Jehovah's Witnesses merely attempt to understand scripture or do they prophesy??
| Daystar wrote: | | Again, this is unfortunate, but similar sex crimes were committed by unfaithful Israelites. |
...and covered up by their leaders??
| Daystar wrote: | | Wolvo wrote: | | Many JW's put their lives on hold in anticipation of this systems imminent destruction. Only to find out later that the dates the WT have given have been based on false interpretation of scripture. I personally have done this. |
But are they responsible for this or are you and the others having made the same mistake? I believe in personal responsibility when it comes to these types of things, which is why I didn't join. I am sorry that all of these things happened but still they are not necessarily an indication that God's earthly isn't the JWs. |
I agree with a certain amount of personal responsibility and i can see why because of that you didn't join. But there are two types of JW's, those who choose to join as adults and those who are taught from childhood. As for those who were taught from childhood, of which i was, i believe personal responsibility can only 'kick in' when an individual educates him/her self. In the mean time being brought up with these teachings as fact, many youths do put their lives on hold at school leaving age, not really knowing anything different.
| Daystar wrote: | | Good point. They are also not the only ones that do that, but they are the only ones teaching the most accurate teachings. |
This really is the question on this thread that you have brought up. Whether their teachings are accurate or not?? What evidence is their either way?? In my view their teachings are not accurate, so in my view going house to house preaching false doctrine and prohecy is not an example of God's work.
| Daystar wrote: | | There you go. Congratulations! Have you then abandoned organized religion - are you out of the frying pan and into the fire? Or do you consider yourself spiritually independent and personally responsible? |
I have abandoned belonging to an organised religion, but at the same time many religions do have some good and positive points. I have spent many years in a spiritual wilderness, it is only in recent months and years that i have found a spirituality within me. I can take the good out of all religions and philosophies. I believe that Jesus and the bible have a lot to offer, in terms of many good things can be learnt, but i do not just limit my spirituality to the Christian view.
I am here to learn, i am open minded and willing to admit when i am wrong. It has taken me many years to realise that the way i was brought up is wrong, many years of being closed minded to other views. I have spent many years really wanting to believe in the WT societies views. But eventually i had to finally admit to myself that i had been lied to. For now, i am enjoying my spiritual journey and learning as i go along.
First and foremost i do consider myself personally responsible for my own spirituality and in turn my relationship with my God and higher power. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Wolvo wrote: | | Like i've said before, it's almost as if TBax reads from a script, |
So. Even if that is true, does that make the point invalid? Does using an illustration to make a point become invalid because it is repeated? The question still begs to be answered.
| Wolvo wrote: | | So according to their own literature, do Jehovah's Witnesses merely attempt to understand scripture or do they prophesy?? |
JW's "prophesy" by using the inspired Bible. For instance: This quote from the 1976 book, namely "Their prophesying is very timely inasmuch as it is to precede and foretell the “coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.”, this day is indeed coming, and telling others about it is prophesying. We know this because it is from the inspired Bible. Who else is telling their neighbors of God's kingdom and of God's coming day of wrath?
(Matthew 24:14) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
God's people do receive holy spirit as Jesus and others fortold. We need that holy spirit to do the work Jesus assigned his disciples of making new disciples by telling our neighbors the good news of God's kingdom and of God's coming day of wrath. That holy spirit isn't inspiring new prophesy though. Neither do JW's believe we are inspired to create new prophesy. None of Wolvo's quotes say otherwise.
The questions still beg to be answered. Preferable by Daystar.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5286
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | If you do not even claim to be Christian, what is your purpose here?????????? You cannot build up, you can only tear down! You have no where to direct people for life. You can only sit and criticize. |
TBax, this is just to inform you that Wolvo has as much right to be here as you or any other member.
Nobby
_________________
Much Love Nobby
CVP Smilies
dictionary Bible |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | Daystar,
The season of Christmas commemorates and honors Christ and His arrival.....His birth. A prominate theme for those celebrating Christmas is peace on earth and good will towards men....hence the gift giving.
Luke 2
12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Now, if we disregard the above, and focus on your position, we can perhaps rest assured that we are not unwittingly partaking in paying homage to some ancient, and mostly forgotten false god(s). The problem with this however, is that this places us in the company of those who most definitely do not and would not ever pay homage to Christ and his arrival....and places us standing with those who would not want to perpetuate the sign given to us, as mentioned in Luke 2.....and standing with those who would not want to perpetuate the tidings of great joy, arising from this event, which, as the bible indicates, is to all people.
...
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The shepherds responded to the news but they didn't go with gifts. And there is no indication in the New Testament that Christians celebrated Christmas.
And when you think about it and compare against the event itself, it would be impossible for a December 25 birth of Jesus. As you indicated the shepherds were outside in the fields sleeping overnight. No shepherd would be sleeping overnight in the winter. It would be too snowy or rainy for that besides being too cold. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolvo wrote: |
| TBax wrote: | | If your immediate life is involved does that make a scriptural principle optional? |
The question really is as to whether abstaining from life saving treatment is a scriptural principle.
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For the Christians in the first century all they had to do was the "life saving treatment" of offering adoration to the image of Nero. I'm sure everyone else did it whether it was sincere or not. The Christians however sincerely didn't - and were fed to wild beasts for their honestly.
| Wolvo wrote: |
I am here to learn, i am open minded and willing to admit when i am wrong. It has taken me many years to realise that the way i was brought up is wrong, many years of being closed minded to other views. I have spent many years really wanting to believe in the WT societies views. But eventually i had to finally admit to myself that i had been lied to. For now, i am enjoying my spiritual journey and learning as i go along.
First and foremost i do consider myself personally responsible for my own spirituality and in turn my relationship with my God and higher power. |
I don't know, Wolvo. You appear more to critisize the JWs at every post rather than being open minded to learn their views. Or even consider them. You come already prepared to start an argument. I'm not saying that you aren't open minded but so far you don't indicate that given your posting history here.
Just an observation.
Personally, I don't agree that a Christian goes it alone. Christianity is a brotherhood. |
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Wolvo
House Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: |
| Wolvo wrote: | I am here to learn, i am open minded and willing to admit when i am wrong. It has taken me many years to realise that the way i was brought up is wrong, many years of being closed minded to other views. I have spent many years really wanting to believe in the WT societies views. But eventually i had to finally admit to myself that i had been lied to. For now, i am enjoying my spiritual journey and learning as i go along.
First and foremost i do consider myself personally responsible for my own spirituality and in turn my relationship with my God and higher power. |
I don't know, Wolvo. You appear more to critisize the JWs at every post rather than being open minded to learn their views. Or even consider them. You come already prepared to start an argument. I'm not saying that you aren't open minded but so far you don't indicate that given your posting history here.
Just an observation. |
As for me being open minded and here to learn, i am refering to the whole site, rather than just this section. I have spent alot of time reading through other sections and trying to get a balanced view of the bible.
You are correct with regards to JW's that i am now closed minded to their views. The reason for this however is that i have spent many years being open minded with them and tried to learn from them. I was brought up from a child as a JW, so when i post critically of them i feel i am qualified to.
For instance in this thread Tbax has proposed an argument that JW's do not prophesy, merely attempt to understand scripture. Whereas the reality is throughout their literature they claim to prophesy. From my own experience i remember many instances in the Kingdom Hall, where they class themselves as Jehovah's modern day prophets. So when i read this, surely you're not suggesting that i should ignore a comment when someone suggests they do not prophesy?? This is just one example, there have been many.
From my experience and from the experience of many i know this religion has been very damaging. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolvo wrote: | | Ryck wrote: |
| Wolvo wrote: | I am here to learn, i am open minded and willing to admit when i am wrong. It has taken me many years to realise that the way i was brought up is wrong, many years of being closed minded to other views. I have spent many years really wanting to believe in the WT societies views. But eventually i had to finally admit to myself that i had been lied to. For now, i am enjoying my spiritual journey and learning as i go along.
First and foremost i do consider myself personally responsible for my own spirituality and in turn my relationship with my God and higher power. |
I don't know, Wolvo. You appear more to critisize the JWs at every post rather than being open minded to learn their views. Or even consider them. You come already prepared to start an argument. I'm not saying that you aren't open minded but so far you don't indicate that given your posting history here.
Just an observation. |
As for me being open minded and here to learn, i am refering to the whole site, rather than just this section. I have spent alot of time reading through other sections and trying to get a balanced view of the bible.
You are correct with regards to JW's that i am now closed minded to their views. The reason for this however is that i have spent many years being open minded with them and tried to learn from them. I was brought up from a child as a JW, so when i post critically of them i feel i am qualified to.
For instance in this thread Tbax has proposed an argument that JW's do not prophesy, merely attempt to understand scripture. Whereas the reality is throughout their literature they claim to prophesy. From my own experience i remember many instances in the Kingdom Hall, where they class themselves as Jehovah's modern day prophets. So when i read this, surely you're not suggesting that i should ignore a comment when someone suggests they do not prophesy?? This is just one example, there have been many.
From my experience and from the experience of many i know this religion has been very damaging. |
Thank you for your background. That was insightful.
If anyone utters a prophesy they automatically set an alarm clock. If the alarm rings and the prophesy is late, that's a problem for the prophesy utterer and they have to face the music that inevitably comes. The solution is either start making accurate prophesies or stop making them.
Everybody gets hurt from many things. Maybe it's good to talk about it just to get some positive feedback from those in the position to help. But I suggest you not keep nursing those bad feelings nor get into the revenge business against those who used to be your churchmates. You'll be surprised how much more powerful forgiveness is rather than revenge.
I don't know if you were an actual member of TBax's church or not. But if not, then remember that TBax has no personal grind against you and you shouldn't have a personal grind against him either. It was the church that disappointed you.
Just my two cents. |
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TJ
Goldfish
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Hi Daystar,
I just joined this forum, so I hope that you are still reading this thread. I was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses about two years ago, and I've studied some of the same issues you've raised here. I'll give you some of my thoughts.
| Daystar wrote: | | What evidence is there that the organization is what it claims to be? What does it claim to be? What evidence is there that the Watchtower is Jehovah God's organization? |
Our organization is an international brotherhood of persons, united for the purpose of worshiping Jehovah God and to carry out the worldwide preaching work announcing God's Kingdom (compare Isaiah 2:2-4; Matthew 24:14). Jesus plainly said what evidence would be the identifying mark of his true disciples when he said, "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (John 13:35)
Now can loving individuals be found in different religions or even outside of religion? I believe that they can. But as a group, I have found Jehovah's Witnesses to display love to a superlative degree. Let me explain.
If you randomly chose two members of any denomination of Christendom and put them together, they might get along well, since they share the same faith. However, I don't think many people would find it a stretch to presume that once the topic of discussion turned to politics, nationalism, culture, etc., you'd find that some of those things would divide them about as much or even more than their religion unites them in brotherly love. This is what has given religion, and Christianity, a bad name.
I have found Jehovah's Witnesses to generally be above these man-made divisions, keeping their love for Jehovah and for each other first. They do not involve themselves in corrupt and divisive politics, they are not nationalistic, and any cultural divisions pale compared to their common Christian hope. I have personally experienced this transcending love on many occasions while meeting Witnesses from very different backgrounds, locations, languages, social classes, etc.
Again, I don't view these as absolutes between Jehovah's Witnesses and other proclaimed disciples of Jesus Christ, but more of an overall generality. Jehovah's Witnesses love one another. Others agree.
"The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. . . . All are brothers." (Encyclopedia Canadiana)
"Jehovah's Witnesses can rightfully claim to have resisted the 'wicked.' In a literal sense they have fulfilled their own claim of being true followers of Jesus Christ, while the two large churches in Germany, as they openly admit, failed terribly. . . . Without the example of this steadfast Christian group under the oppression of the National Socialist dictatorship, we would—after Auschwitz and the Holocaust—have to doubt whether it is at all possible to fulfill the Christian teachings of Jesus." (Gabriele Yonan; Journal of Church and State, Vol. 42, Num. 2)
"They [Jehovah's Witnesses] would choose to die rather than kill someone. Consequently, I am sure if only Jehovah’s Witnesses lived on the earth then wars would not break out anywhere." (Ring Magazine; Nov. 4, 1992)
| Daystar wrote: | I originally stopped my study with the JWs due to the blood transfusion ban. . . . Similar bans on vaccinations, organ transplants, education, and neutrality that were destructive and eventually revoked.
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I think I know some of the same information you have on these topics, and I think you'd be surprised to learn how these might be different from the ban on blood transfusions.
For example, the "ban" on organ transplants was during the still-experimental phase of this type of procedure, at a time when many, both religious and medical authorities, were struggling with the moral and ethical concerns of this new area of medicine. This can be seen in the literature of the time, both of Witnesses and non-Witnesses. And while those Witnesses who accepted blood transfusions were threatened with congregational discipline, I can find no evidence in the published literature of that era showing that one would be disciplined for undergoing an organ transplant procedure.
And since these procedures were still experimental, they were much more dangerous and not performed nearly as often as they are today. Obstacles, such as rejection, had to be dealt with before transplants became more mainstream. It was about that time that Witnesses settled on leaving such a matter up to a person's conscience.
So an understanding of how technology and techniques develop over time, along with an equal understanding of how Witnesses and others concerned with morals and ethics reacted to such developments, makes the past stands on such matters much more reasonable to our 20-20-hindsight view.
| Daystar wrote: | For me, this is THE most important information. Child abuse, death and misery are not knew to the Watchtower but they are not new to any other organization of people including the Kings of the Bible days and there is no doubt that those people who did abominable things, were Jehovah God's earthly organization. The Biblical example of unfaithfulness in God's organization exceeds the same in the Watchtower so that in itself is not a scriptural reason to dismiss the Watchtower as being God's modern day earthly organization, but ... the false prophecy is reason enough.
The Bible states clearly that a false prophet is one who says something is going to happen in the name of Jehovah God and it doesn't happen and to stay away from those. The JW history of false prophets always reminded me of Hananiah (Jer. 28:1-14) |
That's an interesting view, but I see it differently. First, let me ask you a question.
If I came up to you today and told you that, based on my genuine and sincere understanding of inspired scripture, Jesus' return is so close that you absolutely will live to see it for yourself, and I told others about this, if it didn't happen, would I be a false prophet? Would I be rejected by God?
Thanks Daystar,
TJ |
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