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Luvnlife
Lion King

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257

Location: US

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject:

TBax wrote:

Quote:

Wolvo wrote:

Quote:

I am not a Christian.

TBax:

Quote:

If you do not even claim to be Christian, what is your purpose here?????????? You cannot build up, you can only tear down! You have no where to direct people for life. You can only sit and criticize.
--

Wolvo responded:

Quote:

Sorry i didn't realise only Christians are allowed on this site

Wolvo;

I am sorry if some have given you the wrong impression. You are welcome to post, teach, learn, glean and ask questions on this site.

There are people from many different backgrounds on this site. There are those who attend a church, some who have been from one church to another, some who read the bible and believe but don't go to church, some who are searching, some who are agnostic and even some who are self-proclaimed atheists.

Please don't take what he said personally. You are welcome and I for one am glad you are here.

Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:25 am Post subject:

Thanks luvnlife. I haven't taken it personally, I realise that JW's view all outside of their religion as non-christian anyway.

TBax
King Kong

Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject:

Wolvo wrote:

I speak against your brothers as i have seen at first hand the devastation this religion has caused on people's lives, including the death of someone.

Matt 16:25 For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.

Everlasting life is far more valuable then extending life in this system at all costs. But since you do not value Christ's sacrifice as you should, you will not get this, or perhaps believe it is possible.

Wolvo wrote:

As i am not a Christian, what i have to ask myself is whether the importance of being worthy of Jesus is more important than it is for my family. It obviously isn't otherwise i would become a Christian.

Thank you for your honest answer. It explains alot. A person who lacks faith cannot fully understand the Christian's stand that he takes.

I find it interesting that you come here as an authority of truth, while providing information that you lack faith and that your judgement is flawed. Rolling Eyes

How is your judgement flawed???
In 2 ways.
1:

Wolvo wrote:

As i have mentioned, in quoting this scripture you wrongly substitute being worthy of Jesus as being worthy of the WT organisation.

I never made that connection in the post, but used scripture and questions to show that opposers against true Christianity will exist as even Jesus had to deal with that. In your haste to prove JW's wrong, you do not try to understand what was actually written, but you read what you want to see so you can attack it. Rolling Eyes

Although I do believe that parallel exists, that isn't what I wrote about.

You have an agenda. It isn't to find your spirituality, but to attack Jehovah's people.

2:

Wolvo wrote:

I threw the baby out with the bath water so to speak.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water shows a horrendous lack of judgement. That is something that should never be done. Yet you admit to it and speak of it as a badge of honor. As something you were forced to do because you were "stumbled" so badly. Rolling Eyes

People that lack faith will be stumbled in one way or another. Sad

People that lack judgement will not draw proper conclusions.

Cool

_________________
Agape,
TBax

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject:

Wolvo wrote:

TBax,

I would suggest if you wish to carry on being critical of my posts then start a new thread, as the questions you have asked me have nothing to do with the OP question

But thank you, from time to time i have to be reminded how JW's treat and talk to those who choose to leave your organisation.

TBax
King Kong

Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject:

And thank you for showing the type of people that choose to leave. _________________ Agape, TBax

Daystar
Puppy

Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218

Location: Midwest US

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject:

Wolvo wrote:

Daystar,

I would like to apologise for taking the thread off topic.

It was in no way my intention, but i was asked why i was here and accused of tearing people down, so i felt i needed to give a full answer.

I do not intend to hijack the thread with my critiques of JW's or my stance that i am not a Christian.

No need to apologize, Wolvo, I think that you have made some good points regarding the 'destructive' power of the Watchtower. But is that 'destructive' power an indication that it is or is not Jehovah God's orginization.

If you were to introduce an open minded pair of threads on shunning and disfellowship I would agree with the Watchtower as being scripturally suported in their position.

Compare that realistically to Christendom's position with the possible exception of excommunication I can't think of anything.

People tend to think that Jesus and his followers should be watered down and sort of warm and fuzzy as long as you attend church on Sunday. Perhaps that is more destructive to not only the family but also spiritually.

Last edited by Daystar on Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:45 am; edited 1 time in total

Luvnlife
Lion King

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257

Location: US

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject:

TBax wrote:

And thank you for showing the type of people that choose to leave. Cool

Hmmmm......

What does that mean?

TBax is apparently qualified to judge Wolvo. Wonder where he got his credentials. My guess is either a box of Cracker Jacks or his WT.

Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject:

Daystar wrote:

But is that 'destructive' power an indication that it is or is not Jehovah God's orginization.

IMHO i do not believe a loving God would want to destroy lives, that in itself leads me to believe that it isn't God's organisation.

Quote:

If you were to introduce an open minded pair of threads on shunning and disfellowship I would agree with the Watchtower as being scripturally suported in their position.

It is not only the disfellowshipping aspect of JW's that leads me to believe this is destructive. This is just one of the elements that can have a negative impact on an individuals life.

Quote:

Compare that realistically to Christendom's position with the possible exception of excommunication I can't think of anything.

People tend to think that Jesus and his followers should be watered down and sort of warm and fuzzy as long as you attend church on Sunday. Perhaps that is more destructive to not only the family but also spiritually.

I agree there is much more than to a relationship with God than merely attending church on a Sunday. The WT organisation however is not unique with their thoughts on this.

Quote:

TBax is apparently qualified to judge Wolvo. Wonder where he got his credentials. My guess is either a box of Cracker Jacks or his WT.

Thank you Luvnlife. The WT organisation has a judgemental vein running throughout itself. Only those who have been on the inside have experienced the way individual JW's judge not only those on the outside but those on the inside too, day in and day out.

Daystar
Puppy

Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218

Location: Midwest US

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:56 am Post subject:

Wolvo wrote:

IMHO i do not believe a loving God would want to destroy lives, that in itself leads me to believe that it isn't God's organisation.

I hear that often. Tell it to the Sodomites and those that left Egypt with Moses. Would you say that out of the hundreds of thousands that left Egypt including Moses that a loving God would allow only 2 to enter the promised land? Yet that was the case and then the question becomes one of "Why?"

God was making a nation of people to bring forth the Messiah. A people of law. Do you think that some of the lawless people told their fellow travelers "Don't worry, a loving God would not take us out of slavery only to parish in the wilderness?"

Wolvo wrote:

It is not only the disfellowshipping aspect of JW's that leads me to believe this is destructive. This is just one of the elements that can have a negative impact on an individuals life.

Could you please relate some of those elements to us? I mentioned disfellowshipping and shunning as being scriptural, what else is there as such?

Zathrus
King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270

Location: WI USA

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:28 am Post subject:

TBax wrote:

And thank you for showing the type of people that choose to leave. Cool

That's right. The ones I have met here on this site for the most part seem to be characterized by understanding, integrity and compassion. I am glad to be in their company.
_________________
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pastor2022
Moderator

Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:33 am Post subject:

Get this thread back onto the OP please. Thanks. God bless. _________________ Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences.

Luvnlife
Lion King

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257

Location: US

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: A Simple Question

pastor2022 Posted:---------------------------------------

Quote:

Get this thread back onto the OP please. Thanks. God bless

Quote:

What evidence is there that the organization is what it claims to be? What does it claim to be? What evidence is there that the Watchtower is Jehovah God's organization?

OK.... Sorry.
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:15 am Post subject:

Daystar wrote:

What evidence is there that the organization is what it claims to be? What does it claim to be? What evidence is there that the Watchtower is Jehovah God's organization?

Ok, it is one of my arguments that it is the destructive element on an individuals life that gives evidence that this is not God's organisation.

Daystar wrote:

Could you please relate some of those elements to us? I mentioned disfellowshipping and shunning as being scriptural, what else is there as such?

First of all i believe that the scriptures JW's use from the bible to support disfellowshipping are taken out of context. I can understand them not wanting to associate with someone whose lifestyle is morally abhorent. I have discussed this on other threads, so i do not want to dominate this thread, with my thoughts on how the WT organisation extend the application of the two scriptures, namely 1 Cor 5:9-13 & 2John 1:9-11. In my view the way JW's treat a disfellowshipped person is not scriptural, but on that we differ. I can understand why a JW would not want to associate with someone who has a lifestyle abhorent to scripture, but they extend their excommunication to those who merely choose to leave or to those who have committed a wrong, but still live within biblical and moral guidelines.

Another destructive element of the WT organisation is the blood transfusion issue. The two scriptures they use to support this are Acts 15:20 & Genesis 9:4. Both of these two scriptures however refer to the eating of blood, rather than a life saving transfusion. A JW would argue that to abstain from blood means a blood transfusion, others would argue that life is precious to God and the context of these scriptures are regards eating blood. A typical example of this is a mother breast feeding. Breast milk is full of white blood cells, so does Acts and Genesis also mean a mother cannot breast feed her baby?? Obviously not. Yet on the basis of abstaining from blood, if we are going to give it a blanket meaning surely this should apply too.

In recent years however the WT has changed their stance on certain life saving treatment with regards to blood. Certain blood components are seen as a 'conscence matter' matter. Interestlingly the acceptence of a blood transfusion is seen as a 'conscience matter' in Bulgaria. The WT society had to compromise their stance on this so that the Bulgarian government recognised JW's as a religion. This however is not highly publicised but the info is out there.

So i would ask how would an individual feel who has lost a loved one due to not having a blood transfusion now feel, knowing that the WT has altered their stance and made certain blood treatment a conscience matter??

A third destructive element amongst JW's is that their policies protect unrepentant poedophiles who do not admit their wrong doing. Their 'two witness' rule, whereby two people have to witness a wrong doing, to prove a scripural wrong has led to times where poedophiles have 'got away' with their crimes. These crimes or accusations are not then handed over to the authorities for fear of 'bringing Jehovah's name into reproach". JW's criticise the Catholic church for similar policies, but to the average individual JW, they do not realise what their policies have done in this regard.

Now i realise that the majority or most of JW's find this act abhorent. But their policy of the two witness rule, the very nature of this act means two witnesses are not present, means that individuals have got away with it and have continued to serve in the congregation.

In all honesty this problem that has existed deserves another thread all on its own as there is a lot of info on it. The info i have provided here is very limited, that deserves more explanation. If you would like me to discuss it at length then i would suggest to start a new thread and i would be happy to provide all the info. Including the 16 cases in 2007 where the WT has settled out of court settlements. These cases were brought through the Attorney firm Love & Norris where it is believed the settlement was estimated at $13 million.

Other destructive elements include their constant mention of dates 1914, 1975, 'this generation' of 1914. Individuals do not establish careers or put off buying a house or pensions, believing Armaggedon is going to happen in a specific year.

Another element the discouraging of higher education for youngsters. Youths have been 'peer pressured in to committing to full time preaching, rather than getting an education. University and higher education have been actively discouraged over the years.

Yet another element is within their Sep 2007 Kingom Ministry, which strictly forbids debate or independent research outside of WT literature or meetings. This in itself brings the accusation of 'mind control' or 'brain washing'.

Daystar, the list goes on. Each of these destructive elements of the society deserves a new thread, as there is far too much to say on them than what i have said here. Please anyone feel free to start a thread and i will contribute info.

The examples i have provided more than show how this organisation can have a damaging effect on an individuals life. My personalexperience of the JW religion, as well as that of many that i know have been a very negative and damaging experience. In my view these destructive elements alone show me that this is not God's organistaion.

Daystar
Puppy

Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218

Location: Midwest US

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:56 am Post subject:

Wolvo wrote:

Ok, it is one of my arguments that it is the destructive element on an individuals life that gives evidence that this is not God's organization.

I don't know if that is good enough; I think it is a reflection of the organization, but not necessarily of the question at hand. I will explain this further below.

Wolvo wrote:

A disfellowshipped JW can attend but not actively participate in the congregation. If they are repentant they can associate with elders in the congregation in doing so, but can't associate or fellowship with others in the congregation until reinstated. That is in a basic sense the way it works, correct?

If a disfellowshipped person resides with members in the congregation in good standing then those in good standing will generally give the disfellowshipped a 'cold shoulder.' There are two reasons for this. First, so as not give the disfellowshipped the opportunity to influence those in good standing in a spiritually harmful way and second in order to convince the disfellowshipped into repentance and back into the congregation.

This seems to me a practical interpretation of scripture. The question is - is it harmful and if so how does that reflect upon the question of the Watchtower being God's earthly organization.

Consider the Hebrew word evil, which I posted an article on in the Words board. It was harmful for God to create evil - in the case of Adam's sin and the flood etc. and yet it was God's doing and it was justice.

The average Christian and even skeptic tends to see the evil that God creates in a very limited and uninformed or short sighted way. They reason to the effect that "God could have just used his powers so that these things didn't happen." So, in light of this I am inclined not to think that the harmful effects of discipline in the scripturally based accurate knowledge within the elders of a Christian congregation is an indication that it isn't Jehovah God's earthly organization.

Wolvo wrote:

Another destructive element of the WT organization is the blood transfusion issue. The two scriptures they use to support this are Acts 15:20 & Genesis 9:4. Both of these two scriptures however refer to the eating of blood, rather than a life saving transfusion. A JW would argue that to abstain from blood means a blood transfusion, others would argue that life is precious to God and the context of these scriptures are regards eating blood. A typical example of this is a mother breast feeding. Breast milk is full of white blood cells, so does Acts and Genesis also mean a mother cannot breast feed her baby?? Obviously not. Yet on the basis of abstaining from blood, if we are going to give it a blanket meaning surely this should apply too.

I originally stopped my study with the JWs due to the blood transfusion ban. Although up until just a couple of days ago I agreed with their position, I thought that it should be a matter of conscience rather than a religious edict. There is too great a opportunity for misapplication and too many examples of this being the case in the past. Similar bans on vaccinations, organ transplants, education, and neutrality that were destructive and eventually revoked.

The blood is the soul and belongs to Jehovah, and when eating meat it is to be poured out onto the ground. This is a representation of respect for the life - the soul - and its creator, Jehovah God.

Eating it is not the same as using it for saving lives. That is where my thinking is at now. However - I have had open heart surgery without blood transfusion. If medical science would further investigate bloodless surgery they would be far better for it. The work that the JWs have done in this regard has been phenomenal, and beneficial to many thousands of lives outside of the organization.

Wolvo wrote:

In recent years however the WT has changed their stance on certain life saving treatment with regards to blood. Certain blood components are seen as a 'conscience matter' matter. Interestingly the acceptance of a blood transfusion is seen as a 'conscience matter' in Bulgaria. The WT society had to compromise their stance on this so that the Bulgarian government recognized JW's as a religion. This however is not highly publicized but the info is out there.

That is a good thing. I have always thought that it is slowly moving in that direction. Incidentally, I seen a television show on TLC about a man who had a disfiguring and life threatening condition of tumors on his face that required surgery that the doctors 'couldn't' perform without blood transfusion and he was a JW. The show was called Man Without A Face.

Wolvo wrote:

So i would ask how would an individual feel who has lost a loved one due to not having a blood transfusion now feel, knowing that the WT has altered their stance and made certain blood treatment a conscience matter??

Exactly. The Presiding Overseer at the time of my study had had a wife that died because she needed a liver transplant and the society revoked their ban too late for her. She died waiting for a transplant.

Wolvo wrote:

A third destructive element amongst JW's is that their policies protect unrepentant pedophiles who do not admit their wrong doing. Their 'two witness' rule, whereby two people have to witness a wrong doing, to prove a scriptural wrong has led to times where pedophiles have 'got away' with their crimes. These crimes or accusations are not then handed over to the authorities for fear of 'bringing Jehovah's name into reproach". JW's criticize the Catholic church for similar policies, but to the average individual JW, they do not realize what their policies have done in this regard.

Yes. I actually met a contract worker who was not a JW but was working with them and he knew of a case of this happening. The man tried to report him to other elders in the congregation and was surprised that they all knew of it and did nothing. I advised him to go to the police himself.

Wolvo wrote:

In all honesty this problem that has existed deserves another thread all on its own as there is a lot of info on it. The info i have provided here is very limited, that deserves more explanation. If you would like me to discuss it at length then i would suggest to start a new thread and i would be happy to provide all the info. Including the 16 cases in 2007 where the WT has settled out of court settlements. These cases were brought through the Attorney firm Love & Norris where it is believed the settlement was estimated at $13 million.

You don't need my permission, please, present the information.

Wolvo wrote:

Other destructive elements include their constant mention of dates 1914, 1975, 'this generation' of 1914. Individuals do not establish careers or put off buying a house or pensions, believing Armageddon is going to happen in a specific year.

For me, this is THE most important information. Child abuse, death and misery are not knew to the Watchtower but they are not new to any other organization of people including the Kings of the Bible days and there is no doubt that those people who did abominable things, were Jehovah God's earthly organization. The Biblical example of unfaithfulness in God's organization exceeds the same in the Watchtower so that in itself is not a scriptural reason to dismiss the Watchtower as being God's modern day earthly organization, but ... the false prophecy is reason enough.

The Bible states clearly that a false prophet is one who says something is going to happen in the name of Jehovah God and it doesn't happen and to stay away from those. The JW history of false prophets always reminded me of Hananiah (Jer. 28:1-14)

Dust
Lion

Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 941

Location: All over the western U.S.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:11 am Post subject:

Q: What evidence is there that the organization is what it claims to be? A: Apparently NONE, as no evidence has been entered into the discussion. Q: What evidence is there that the organization is not what it claims to be? A: Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. _________________ The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

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