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Daystar
Puppy

Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218

Location: Midwest US

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:51 am Post subject:

Wolvo wrote:

Daystar wrote:

What evidence is there that the organization is what it claims to be?

None.

Quote:

What does it claim to be?

Jehovah God's mouthpiece on earth, to give his followers "their food at the proper time".

Quote:

What evidence is there that the Watchtower is Jehovah God's organization?

None.

Okay. Finally an answer.

Why then would anyone think otherwise?

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject:

Daystar wrote:

Why then would anyone think otherwise?

JW's along with many other organisations use the bible and scripture to back up their arguments. Organisations such as these tend to lean on one particular scripture to offer "proof" of their reasoning, but at the same time ignore the intention or the context of the said scripture.

These organisations may only use part of a verse, or take the verse, yet ignore the surrounding paragraph.

One example of this is Luke 21:20-24. JW's agree that v20-23 and part of 24 refers to Jerusalem's imminent destruction in 70CE, whereas they say the final sentence of v24 refers to Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel ch4 of which they interprate the "appointed times of the nations" as 2520 years between 607BCE - 1914 CE. Thus when the WT puts forward their 1914 doctrine only the latter part of v24 is used to help back it up. Therefore it is shown by the WT to look like a scriptural doctrine.

I believe many individual JW's are sincere in doing this, they are essentially doing what they have been taught. The language of the WT is so clever that if an individual argues against a doctrine and in turn the organisation, they are seen as arguing against the bible.

When, over the years the WT organisation constantly backs their arguments up with a bit selection of scripture, it is hard for the individual to argue back without a full and thorough study.

Let's not forget that many people who become JW's are not well versed in the bible in the early stages, therefore tend to look at JW's as having more knowledge, in so doing are inclined to accept what is being said. On the other hand the individual could have grown up from childhood as a JW, therefore accepting what has been taught as fact, rather than studying it for themselves.

Many individuals who do stand up to discrepency are isolated and excommunicated from their organisation. They are then vilified as "apostates", something detestable to the average JW.

Many individuals therefore tend to unite with the WT heirarchy and sincerely begin to look at them as God's mouthpiece.

Daystar
Puppy

Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218

Location: Midwest US

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:32 am Post subject:

Wolvo wrote:

When an organization or individual begins to back up their argument with speculation rather than scripture then that would be a problem, though I agree that scripture is often taken out of context to do that. All of us do this. Doesn't answer my question.

Wolvo wrote:

These organisations may only use part of a verse, or take the verse, yet ignore the surrounding paragraph.

True, but as I said above ...

Wolvo wrote:

One example of this is Luke 21:20-24. JW's agree that v20-23 and part of 24 refers to Jerusalem's imminent destruction in 70CE, whereas they say the final sentence of v24 refers to Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel ch4 of which they interprate the "appointed times of the nations" as 2520 years between 607BCE - 1914 CE. Thus when the WT puts forward their 1914 doctrine only the latter part of v24 is used to help back it up. Therefore it is shown by the WT to look like a scriptural doctrine.

Okay, but they also used to celebrate Xmas and Easter, they used to tote the phallic symbol the cross like every other Xian ... now they don't. They probably didn't have much in the line of scripture to justify their celebrations of pagan holidays - but does the modern day Xian have any scripture to justify their continuing to celebrate disgusting pagan holidays and teachings?

You miss the point. I don't agree with the double prophecy you mentioned above and though I recognize that you strongly disagree with it - probably because you were taught the unscriptural notion that every good Xian goes to heaven, it doesn't answer the question.

It doesn't indicate what or why the JWs think that their organization is run by Jah himself.

Wolvo wrote:

I believe many individual JW's are sincere in doing this, they are essentially doing what they have been taught. The language of the WT is so clever that if an individual argues against a doctrine and in turn the organisation, they are seen as arguing against the bible.

They are taught to question the religion, if any, that they belonged to previously. They are taught the noble mindedness of the Beroeans and to test even inspired scripture. They are not, therefore, sincere in anything other than their fleshly devotion to the traditions of men unquestionable?

Now you are beginning to get to the point.

Wolvo wrote:

When, over the years the WT organisation constantly backs their arguments up with a bit selection of scripture, it is hard for the individual to argue back without a full and thorough study.

Hard for a Xian, you mean, though it is because they are more studied than the Xian. In order to address this question you have to set aside your uninformed Xian lack of understanding. It isn't relevant. Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean they are wrong in the claims under discussion. You want to have a Bible contest and you will lose - it doesn't matter. You get that?

Wolvo wrote:

Let's not forget that many people who become JW's are not well versed in the bible in the early stages, therefore tend to look at JW's as having more knowledge, in so doing are inclined to accept what is being said. On the other hand the individual could have grown up from childhood as a JW, therefore accepting what has been taught as fact, rather than studying it for themselves.

I was raised as an atheist and studied carefully their literature. Most of it is far more accurate than most anything apostate Christendom teaches. But I didn't join up with them. You are trying to belittle their teachings, which is laughable - because yours pale in comparison and because you can't answer the question. A simple question.

Wolvo wrote:

Many individuals who do stand up to discrepency are isolated and excommunicated from their organisation. They are then vilified as "apostates", something detestable to the average JW.

Not answering the question.

Wolvo wrote:

Many individuals therefore tend to unite with the WT heirarchy and sincerely begin to look at them as God's mouthpiece.

So ... what you are saying is that they are entrapped by the society as the modern Xian is entrapped by tradition?

Zathrus
King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270

Location: WI USA

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:46 am Post subject:

So this is the fruit of Witness teaching. _________________ Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law! 2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." Certified Chalcedon Compliant Officially approved in 451

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:08 am Post subject:

Daystar wrote:

It doesn't indicate what or why the JWs think that their organization is run by Jah himself.

What i have tried to explain, but i think you have missed my point is how an individual JW comes to believe that their organisation is run by Jah. These individuals then go on to become a collective under the umbrella of a WT heirarchy.

You asked,

Quote:

Why then would anyone think otherwise?

I do not understand why you feel i haven't answered this question.

I also do not know to who you are referring when you mention the Xian, where as this come from?? May be i am missing something, or you're just trying to confuse the issues you raise.

Quote:

They are taught to question the religion, if any, that they belonged to previously. They are taught the noble mindedness of the Beroeans and to test even inspired scripture

To a degree you are correct, but they are taught to question the religion within the confines of WT literature. Is that really questioning what they are being taught? I think not, rather they are duped into believing they are doing this.

Quote:

I was raised as an atheist and studied carefully their literature. Most of it is far more accurate than most anything apostate Christendom teaches.

A very general statement. How carefully have you studied their literature? If you have studied as careful as you are making out you wouldn't say that it is accurate. You have made a generalised statement, without citing what beliefs you are referring to.

Quote:

You are trying to belittle their teachings, which is laughable - because yours pale in comparison and because you can't answer the question.

How are my beliefs pale in comparison, considering you do not know my beliefs?

I believe i have answered your question as to why they think they are the mouthpiece of God, but maybe you already have your answer and you just want me to agree with you?

Daystar
Puppy

Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218

Location: Midwest US

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:04 am Post subject:

Zathrus wrote:

So this is the fruit of Witness teaching. :nooo..notme:

What is and what do you object to specifically?

Daystar
Puppy

Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218

Location: Midwest US

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:27 am Post subject:

Wolvo wrote:

I haven’t missed that point, and I do think that it is important, but the question was what evidence is there that they are or are not God's organization.

Wolvo wrote:

I also do not know to who you are referring when you mention the Xian, where as this come from?? May be i am missing something, or you're just trying to confuse the issues you raise.

The Xian is an abbreviation for Christian using the symbol of the pagan phallic symbol the cross. Like Xmas. The cross came in many shapes, one of them being X. What I mean by using that symbol is that there is a difference between true Christianity and apostate pagan Xianity. Basically it applies to all of modern day Christendom.

If I put the same question I am asking of the JWs in my mind towards Xianity they would fail for teaching apostate pagan fables like the immortal soul, hellfire, the trinity, the cross, rapture, Easter and Christmas.

Wolvo wrote:

I agree except with the later portion - that they are duped. They are no more duped by the WT literature than the average Xian is duped by tradition and culture. Belief. People tend to believe what they want to believe.

Quote:

Daystar - I was raised as an atheist and studied carefully their literature. Most of it is far more accurate than most anything apostate Christendom teaches.

Wolvo - A very general statement. How carefully have you studied their literature? If you have studied as careful as you are making out you wouldn't say that it is accurate. You have made a generalised statement, without citing what beliefs you are referring to.

I have studied their literature going back to the 1950's. I studied with them on two separate occasions becoming an unbaptized publisher. I was said to have been an excellent student. Providing Overseers in the congregation would come to me for questions regarding the Bible and their own literature, they showed me to the District Overseer and he was impressed, when the society was admonishing the JWs for not having read the Proclaimers book I had already read it.

I am, however, a little rusty as that was some years ago.

I believe most of their teachings to be far more accurate than the rest of Christendom for the simple fact that they removed the pagan nonsense that Christendom clings doggedly to.

Quote:

Daystar - You are trying to belittle their teachings, which is laughable - because yours pale in comparison and because you can't answer the question.

Wolvo - How are my beliefs pale in comparison, considering you do not know my beliefs?

I can tell by the way that you attack their teachings that you have a religious reason. I have seen it many times.

Wolvo wrote:

I believe i have answered your question as to why they think they are the mouthpiece of God, but maybe you already have your answer and you just want me to agree with you?

No. I think that we agree with each other that they are not Jehovah God's earthly organization but we disagree with why they (the followers) think they belong to that organization and what it is, but that isn't the question. The question is what evidence is there for or against.

What I am really asking you to do is set aside your religious position to take a look at another and see the similarities and the differences. In your own words.

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject:

Daystar wrote:

I can tell by the way that you attack their teachings that you have a religious reason. I have seen it many times.

Wrong. I have no religion, i do not claim to be religious. I am not a Christian. You have proved by that statement you make incorrect assumptions.

Quote:

I believe most of their teachings to be far more accurate than the rest of Christendom for the simple fact that they removed the pagan nonsense that Christendom clings doggedly to.

Let me get this right, you believe their teachings to be far more accurate because they have removed paganism?? Yet they continue to false prophesy and twist scripture to fit into their doctrine. Does that not have any bearing on their "accurate teachings"??

Quote:

the question was what evidence is there that they are or are not God's organization.

Look at my first post on this thread i have said none.

You are the one complicating a simple question, nobody else.

If you really want an answer to the question, what evidence is there that they are or are not God's organization? Perhaps you should ask a JW, as the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence of their claim, no one else.

Daystar
Puppy

Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218

Location: Midwest US

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:14 am Post subject:

Daystar wrote:

I can tell by the way that you attack their teachings that you have a religious reason. I have seen it many times.

Wolvo wrote:

Wrong. I have no religion, i do not claim to be religious. I am not a Christian. You have proved by that statement you make incorrect assumptions.

Then I was wrong about you. I apologize ... I'm doing quite a bit of that lately. Time ... time ... I do make incorrect assumptions from time to time as do we all.

You have peeked my curiosity though. You don't seem to know much about the JW teachings so you are not a former JW are you? Maybe I am confusing you with someone else.

Daystar wrote:

I believe most of their teachings to be far more accurate than the rest of Christendom for the simple fact that they removed the pagan nonsense that Christendom clings doggedly to.

Wolvo wrote:

They are false prophets ... which by the way is another good reason they are not God's organization. Our conversation is not a complete waste of time, then, is it? They don't twist scripture to fit into their doctrine, I don't think, they only misapply it. There is a difference. It isn't intentional beyond reasonable. Their misapplication is a small portion of their teachings and so has only a slight bearing on their teachings as a whole. I don't agree with all of their teachings - just most of them.

Daystar wrote:

the question was what evidence is there that they are or are not God's organization.

Wolvo wrote:

Look at my first post on this thread i have said none.

I disagree. There are some, more than the majority of Christendom, thats for sure.

Wolvo wrote:

You are the one complicating a simple question, nobody else.

If you really want an answer to the question, what evidence is there that they are or are not God's organization? Perhaps you should ask a JW, as the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence of their claim, no one else.

The question was intended as such but then why did you try and answer it? I don't think that they have any burden to proof anything to us, though. We are the ones asking the question. The burden is upon us.

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:32 am Post subject:

Quote:

You have peeked my curiosity though. You don't seem to know much about the JW teachings so you are not a former JW are you? Maybe I am confusing you with someone else.

What makes you think i don't seem to know much about the JW teachings?

I have not posted my history here, but as you ask i will say. I was brought up as a JW from a child but left it at a young age because of many reasons which i will not go into here. I know many JW's, grew up with many.

I have seen at first hand the devastation this controlling religion can do. I have seen people turn to drink and drugs, through being disowned by their family and friends, made to feel worthless.

It is not a crime to leave this religion, yet i have seen many instances where people who leave are treated worse than criminals by a religion that claims to "have love amongst themselves".

I have seen young ones give up their education through peer pressure to commit to full time preaching, then a few years later have their own family and end up working long hours in menial jobs, because of a lack of a career.

Worst of all i have seen at first hand two family members in intensive care for a long time and someone die, after car accidents because of their blood transfusion policy. In all instances it was said they would have had a far greater chance with blood. I have seen their elders from the hospital liason committee apply a certain amount of pressure on their family. In every instance they arrived they seemed more concerned about protecting them from a blood transfusion, rather than wanting to know their health situation. This was summed up in a prayer one of them gave, where not once did he ask Jehovah to help them, but rather geared the prayer around the blood issue. This made an unbelieving family member start shouting and leave the room.

Have no illusion this religion has had a devastating effect on many people's lives. I am not saying this with any agenda of another religion in mind as i have stated. I am talking from my own experience and the experience of friends.

It is only after many years examining this religion with a critical and educated eye, that i can see the way that scripture has been misapplied, which in my view is twisting, but on that we differ.

Quote:

Their misapplication is a small portion of their teachings and so has only a slight bearing on their teachings as a whole. I don't agree with all of their teachings - just most of them

In this i disagree. Their misapplication has a massive bearing in their teachings. It sounds as though you sit on the fence with them, you like most teachings but some you can't believe?

Quote:

The question was intended as such but then why did you try and answer it?

I believe i have answered it because i feel qualified to answer it. If however you do not agree with my answer, then that's why i suggested you should be asking a JW. In my view the burden of proof is on them as they are making the claim. In my view they are not God's organisation because of the false prohesying they do and more importantly because of what i have said above. If God is love, his organisation would not have a devasting effect on people's lives.

TBax
King Kong

Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:03 am Post subject:

Wolvo wrote:

I am not a Christian.

If you do not even claim to be Christian, what is your purpose here?????????? You cannot build up, you can only tear down! You have no where to direct people for life. You can only sit and criticize. Rolling Eyes

--

To all, Smile

Is faith and obedience for Jesus and Jehovah more important then our love for our friends or relatives?????

Matt 10:37 He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

People misunderstood things Jesus spoke and left off from following him. They no doubt gave testamony to others about how this man (Jesus) said shocking ridiculous things. Why didn't the apostles leave?

John 6:60 Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?”
...

67 Therefore Jesus said to the twelve: “YOU do not want to go also, do YOU?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; 69 and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

If the perfect man, Jesus, stumbled others, it is little wonder individuals can find reasons to be stumbled by God's people today. Those desiring will use such instances as excuses to leave. Those God draws will see the same things yet stay. Why?

Of these two groups, which had the true perspective spiritually? Those that allowed themselves to be stumbled, or those that recognized the truth taught by Jesus and stuck around even though they didn't understand what Jesus meant by his "shocking statements" as well?

Since individuals who were associated with Jesus, left off from following him and could speak badly of him, does that alter the truth Jesus spoke? Is that a valid reason to leave??? People who want to leave will rationalize it is. Sad

Daystar, you recognize the greater accuracy of teachings of God's true people, yet refuse to understand why?
_________________
Agape,
TBax

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:48 am Post subject:

TBax wrote:

Wolvo wrote:

I am not a Christian.

If you do not even claim to be Christian, what is your purpose here?????????? You cannot build up, you can only tear down! You have no where to direct people for life. You can only sit and criticize.

--

Sorry i didn't realise only Christians are allowed on this site Confused or disgusted

I am on this site to find out my own spirituality. In the introduction section you will see that i said i do not claim to be Christian but that i acknowledge a spirituality that needs to be explored.

I agree with many of the bible teachings, i also agree with many of Jesus' words. Yet at the same time i take the good out of other philosophies too.

If i were to define myself as a Christian, i personally believe that is putting a limit on the spiritual side to me, i also believe God loves those who are not Christians too, the majority of the world's population.

There is a whole wide world of philosophies out there to explore, that does not just have it's limitations within the confines of the WT organisation. If your opinion of my view is that i only tear down, then that is your perogative. However, i would encourage anyone who is looking to the WT organisation as their salvation to explore other avenues and other philosophies, both inside and outside of the Christian view. I would encourage anyone to take the good out of all philosophies, including some good that can be found within JW's. In light of this i am far from just criticising or tearing anyone down.

Tbax wrote:

To all,

Is faith and obedience for Jesus and Jehovah more important then our love for our friends or relatives?????

Matt 10:37 He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

People misunderstood things Jesus spoke and left off from following him. They no doubt gave testamony to others about how this man (Jesus) said shocking ridiculous things. Why didn't the apostles leave?

John 6:60 Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?”
...

67 Therefore Jesus said to the twelve: “YOU do not want to go also, do YOU?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; 69 and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

Here we have a classic example of twisting scripture or misapplying.

First of all Matthew 10:37 refers to Jesus, not the WT organisation....big difference Rolling Eyes

Secondly, you then go on to suggest that the disciples were stumbled because of this. Shocked

John 6:60, 67-69 refers to the disciples being stumbled after Jesus mentioned eating his flesh and drinking his blood as mentioned in v 54. Embarassed

You really shouldn't take scriptures out of context. The bible is a wonderful book and shouldn't be used in this way.

TBax wrote:

it is little wonder individuals can find reasons to be stumbled by God's people today. Those desiring will use such instances as excuses to leave.

I have not been stumbled by God's people, i have been stumbled by the WT organisation. Upon leaving the religion i grew up in at the time i threw everything out. I threw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. Now i am looking to fulfill my spiritual path and will continue to do so. It was the application of scripture by the WT organisation that stumbled my belief in God, nothing else.

If anyone looks into this religion, they should do so outside of WT literature, as well as within it. Therefore, it would give a more balanced view. If after doing that an individual still chooses to become a JW then that is a choice i personally respect as the individual has looked at all sides.

TBax
King Kong

Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:12 am Post subject:

Since you do not see following Christ as necessary for you, I am not supprised you speak against my brothers. Rolling Eyes

I am not supprised you criticize and misunderstand my words as well. I used scriptures and made a conclusion that is true and real.

TBax wrote:

If the perfect man, Jesus, stumbled others, it is little wonder individuals can find reasons to be stumbled by God's people today. Those desiring will use such instances as excuses to leave. Those God draws will see the same things yet stay. Why?

Of these two groups, which had the true perspective spiritually? Those that allowed themselves to be stumbled, or those that recognized the truth taught by Jesus and stuck around even though they didn't understand what Jesus meant by his "shocking statements" as well?

Since individuals who were associated with Jesus, left off from following him and could speak badly of him, does that alter the truth Jesus spoke? Is that a valid reason to leave??? People who want to leave will rationalize it is. Sad

If you view these words as applying to you, fine. I wasn't specifically speaking about you, but my words and conclusions are true. I twisted nothing. Smile

Someone who views Jesus teachings as just another philosophy is on a wrong path and will not come to proper conclusions. Human wisdom is foolishness with God. That is all you have to rely on, and that is why you fail. Sad

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:49 am Post subject:

Quote:

Since you do not see following Christ as necessary for you, I am not supprised you speak against my brothers.

I speak against your brothers as i have seen at first hand the devastation this religion has caused on people's lives, including the death of someone.

TBax wrote:

If you view these words as applying to you, fine. I wasn't specifically speaking about you, but my words and conclusions are true. I twisted nothing.

You addressed me first in your post, then went on to address "to all", mentioning individuals who get stumbled and leave your organisation. Please do not try to attempt to say that these words were not speaking of me, it is obvious to any reader of the post thats exactly what you were doing.

Quote:

I view Jesus' teachings as something i can learn from, as something that will help me come to an understanding of God. I do not however limit myself to just Jesus' teachings.

I am glad that you said human wisdom is foolishness with God. It is humans that misapply scripture.

I have so much more to rely on that the WT view of the world, in that i succeed, rather than fail.

TBax wrote:

As i have mentioned, in quoting this scripture you wrongly substitute being worthy of Jesus as being worthy of the WT organisation.

First of all Matt 10:37 doesn't mention faith and obedience for Jehovah, only Jesus. So i fail to see the relevence of your first question with regards to Jehovah God.

As for Jesus, he said that he that has greater affection for family members than for him, is not worthy of him. As i am not a Christian, what i have to ask myself is whether the importance of being worthy of Jesus is more important than it is for my family. It obviously isn't otherwise i would become a Christian.

Wolvo
House Cat

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 167

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject:

Daystar, I would like to apologise for taking the thread off topic. It was in no way my intention, but i was asked why i was here and accused of tearing people down, so i felt i needed to give a full answer. I do not intend to hijack the thread with my critiques of JW's or my stance that i am not a Christian. TBax, I would suggest if you wish to carry on being critical of my posts then start a new thread, as the questions you have asked me have nothing to do with the OP question.

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