|
|
| Author |
Message |
Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
|
 Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | My point is that abortions have been around for thousands of years. Jesus would have been aware of them, and yet he didn't say a single word against them in his teachings. |
I'm guessing this means that you have no source for the information I inquired about.
| Quote: | | The only reasonable conclusion to come to is that God does not consider abortions to be murder. |
Would you bet your life on it?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8230
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mattathias wrote: |
I'm guessing this means that you have no source for the information I inquired about. |
I'd have to search for references, so I'll leave it to you. I'm guessing this means that you didn't contemplate the argument I gave...
| Mattathias wrote: |
| Quote: | | The only reasonable conclusion to come to is that God does not consider abortions to be murder. |
Would you bet your life on it? |
I can't answer this question directly. There are about four whole *levels* of doubt separating me from believing that God considers abortion to be murder. Let me explain:
I'm willing to bet my life that God doesn't even exist. But if I did know for a fact that God did exist, I would be willing to bet my life that he's not a personal god. But if I did know for a fact that he existed and was a personal God, I would bet my life that he's not the Christian God.
But to answer your question, if I did know for a fact that he existed, was personal, and was the Christian God, then yes, I would bet my life that he doesn't think that abortions are murder.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | I'd have to search for references, so I'll leave it to you. I'm guessing this means that you didn't contemplate the argument I gave... |
Wanna guess again? 
| Quote: | I can't answer this question directly. There are about four whole *levels* of doubt separating me from believing that God considers abortion to be murder. Let me explain:
I'm willing to bet my life that God doesn't even exist. But if I did know for a fact that God did exist, I would be willing to bet my life that he's not a personal god. But if I did know for a fact that he existed and was a personal God, I would bet my life that he's not the Christian God.
But to answer your question, if I did know for a fact that he existed, was personal, and was the Christian God, then yes, I would bet my life that he doesn't think that abortions are murder. |
I think you are betting your life. (But that's your business, not mine.) Thanks for the stimulating conversation. 
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8230
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mattathias wrote: |
Wanna guess again?
|
So you contemplated it but rejected it? What's wrong with my argument?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | So you contemplated it but rejected it? What's wrong with my argument? |
I anticipated it and contemplated it. (I'm still contemplating it.) I think the difference in our perspectives is clear. Don't you?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8230
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mattathias wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | So you contemplated it but rejected it? What's wrong with my argument? |
I anticipated it and contemplated it. (I'm still contemplating it.) I think the difference in our perspectives is clear. Don't you? |
Not really. If you're right, then I'm wrong. If my whole "Abortion is never condemned explicitly in the Bible" argument is flawed, then you'd be doing me a favor by pointing out to me where I've made my mistake in reasoning.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Not really. |
Our basic premises about man are at opposite ends of the spectrum. My view of man is predicated on Hebraic thought and your view of man is predicated on Greek thought. Those perspectives lead us to our respective (and irreconcilable) conclusions.
Do you believe in the natural (i.e. inherent) immortality of the soul?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8230
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mattathias wrote: |
Do you believe in the natural (i.e. inherent) immortality of the soul? |
No, because science demands that I be skeptical about amazing claims, and that my skepticism must be proportional to the extravagance of the claim being made. The idea of an immortal soul is very extravagant, and there isn't a shred of evidence to support such a claim. Elementary science therefore demands strong skepticism.
But not only that, the idea that people have souls and that they govern our actions is inconsistent with science, so they almost certainly don't exist.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We finally found something we could agree on.
| Quote: | | ...so they almost certainly don't exist. |
So what do you think scripture means when it speaks of souls?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8230
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mattathias wrote: |
So what do you think scripture means when it speaks of souls? |
I assume it means what everyone says it means, but I don't believe in them.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | I assume it means what everyone says it means, but I don't believe in them. |
Have you considered the possibility that "everyone" may not have a correct understanding of the meaning?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8230
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mattathias wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | I assume it means what everyone says it means, but I don't believe in them. |
Have you considered the possibility that "everyone" may not have a correct understanding of the meaning? |
Ok, I'll bite. What is a soul?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Ok, I'll bite. What is a soul? |
It means a creature, or the life of that creature. Humans, as well as animals, are souls. The Hebrew word is nephesh.
The Use of Nephesh in the Old Testament
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8230
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So you don't believe that we have something inside us which animates us, but is not made out of matter, cannot be studied by science, and cannot be destroyed?
By the way, if you want to see some of the intellectual dishonesty I was talking about earlier, go over to the evolution vs. creation forum and check out the "From Nothing, Nothing Comes" thread.
In you can read the thoughts of RND, a Christian on this discussion board who I believe is purposefully trying to misunderstand what evolutionary theory says in order to better be able to caricature and attack it. If you have the time, read some of his posts, and tell me what you think.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | So you don't believe that we have something inside us which animates us, but is not made out of matter, cannot be studied by science, and cannot be destroyed? |
It took me a while to study the information in the link I provided. You must be a speed reader.
If you checked closely, the link had nothing positive to say about the natural immortality of the soul. Of course a soul (person) can be destroyed.
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
