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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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 Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: JW's and the Trinity and what the bible says |
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I don't believe in the Trinity. I even started a thread in the 'Trinity' section refuting this teaching and citing many scriptures supporting my non-trinitarian beliefs.
Recently though, I started studying the scriptures a little deeper to find out why so many people do believe in the Trinity.
I found many scriptures backing the Trinitarian viewpoint and began wondering if my hard-headedness on this subject is a result of being raised as a JW.
I still consider myself a non-trinitarian. There are several places in the bible, however, that allude to or state outright that Jesus is God and so I decided to open up this discussion.
Since JW's are non-trinitarian and because I was raised in the JW religion, I decided to open up the discussion in this forum.
Though this subject is being raised in the JW forum, I welcome feedback from anyone but especially those with non-trinitarian beliefs as I would like to know how you interpret these verses.
There are many bible verses that I have come across but I am going to start with Revelations 22:12-20:
Revelations 22:12-20:
KJV:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
NWT (online http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm): 12 “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. 13 I am the Al´pha and the O•me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. 14 Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.’
16 “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.’”
17 And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.
18 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.
20 “He that bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes; I am coming quickly.’”
DARBY:
12 Behold, I come quickly, and my reward with me, to render to every one as his work shall be.
13 *I* [am] the Alpha and the Omega, [the] first and [the] last, the beginning and the end.
14 Blessed [are] they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city.
15 Without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loves and makes a lie.
16 *I* Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. *I* am the root and offspring of David, the bright [and] morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take [the] water of life freely.
18 *I* testify to every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any one shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book.
19 And if any one take from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.
20 He that testifies these things says, Yea, I come quickly. Amen; come, Lord Jesus.
Thanks,
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: Re: JW's and the Trinity and what the bible says |
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NAB
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
16 "I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright morning star."
20 The one who gives this testimony says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
NJB
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to attest these things to you for the sake of the churches. I am the sprig from the root of David and the bright star of the morning.
20 The one who attests these things says: I am indeed coming soon. Amen; come, Lord Jesus.
NIV
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
HCSB
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to attest these things to you for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright Morning Star."
20 He who testifies about these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
ASV
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright, the morning star.
20 He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus.
NASB
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the escendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly " Amen Come, Lord Jesus. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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OK. I appreciate that you have listed other translations that concur with my initial post.
Do you believe that Jesus is God based on what you posted? Do you believe in the GodHead?
If the bible supports this teaching, why do some Christians not believe? And, after reading Reveletion 22:12-20, why do JW's bash other Christian churches for believing in the trinity doctrine?
Luv
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For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Luvnlife wrote: | OK. I appreciate that you have listed other translations that concur with my initial post.
Do you believe that Jesus is God based on what you posted? Do you believe in the GodHead?
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I don't believe that Jesus is 100% God nor that Jesus is 33% God as the 2nd person of the Trinity God.
| Quote: |
If the bible supports this teaching, why do some Christians not believe? And, after reading Reveletion 22:12-20, why do JW's bash other Christian churches for believing in the trinity doctrine?
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My theory is that since the church teaches the Trinity as a tenant of the faith most people simply accept it with no investigation under the assumption that it is true.
Regarding what JWs teach I have to defer to an actual JW to answer. However, I don't see Trinity teaching in Revelation 22:12-20. Perhaps you can show me what Trinity pattern you see there. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife
The passage in Rev 22 is Jesus speaking as God. There are many passage in the new testament, and probably in the old, where we can see this. Jesus could do that because He was given that right by His Father. He received everything He has from the Father, including all power and authority, and including rights held by God alone.
I'm not trinitarian. After taking a close look at the subject of the godhead 25 years ago, I've come to an understanding based on what I see revealed in the Bible. Others may see something else. But to me, passages such as Rev 22 where Jesus is speaking as God do not prove the trinity to me.
OTOH, I do not believe the Witness understanding of the godhead. I give them credit for looking into this subject, but I have not reached the same conclusion. And I would not limit myself to choosing only between the Witness godhead and the trinity. Better to just try to understnad for yourself what the Bible says about it.
BTW, som eothers are:
When Jesus said "Hereafter you shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds on the right hand of Power". The Jews in His day would have recognized this as a reference to how the prophets described God coming in judgement. Jesus was saying "I will come as God to judge you".
When Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am". Some explain this away, but it's clearly an allusion to something God said, and those who heard Him say it got it, because it says they became offended enough to pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy.
There are a few other passages I know of, and I think there is a post in this forum somewhere where I went into some of this with TBax.
I don't see the scriptures teaching that Jesus is God in and of Himself. I see them saying He received all that He has from the Father. God the Father is God in and of Himself.
And what about the Holy Spirit? Is there an verse that says "The Holy Spirit is God", or where the Spirit is spoken to as God? I don't know of any. However, Jesus said this:
John 14:
| Quote: | 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. |
Jesus speaks of the Spirit in the third person, but in verse 18, it sure sounds like He is telling the disciples that the Spirit is He Himself.
And in answer to Judas' question of how Jesus would reveal Himself to the disciples, Jesus answers He would reveal Himself by living in them. Who does He say will live in us? A third person of the trinity? Not really. He says He and His Father live in us.
God is Spirit. That is the form He exists in. And I think the Holy Spirit is God Himself, and Jesus Christ, come to live in us. The tabernacle of God is with men!
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 152
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
I believe I can think of one passage off the top of my head where the Holy Sprit is equtated to God. Acts 5; 1-6 (Bold are mine I added)
1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. 6 The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| dabmci wrote: | Zathrus,
I believe I can think of one passage off the top of my head where the Holy Sprit is equtated to God. Acts 5; 1-6 |
Good one, dabmci. Actually I shoud have phrased my question differnetly, because as you can see from what I wrote after that, it's not that I doubt that the Holy Spirit is God, just that I'm not convinced the Bible teaches that the Spirit is a third and separate person in the godhead.
Now at Jesus' baptism, there was Jesus in the river, the Spirit descending like a dove, and the Father speaking from heaven. that's the one verse that might be used to show that the Holy Spirit is a separate entity from the Father and the Son. But that was a spiritual vision meant to show that Jesus was annointed with the power of the Spirit and had His Father's complete approval. It wasn't meant to show us a revelation of the structure of the godhead. Other verses speak of the Spirit being synonymous with God and Jesus Christ themselves.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | dabmci wrote: | Zathrus,
I believe I can think of one passage off the top of my head where the Holy Sprit is equtated to God. Acts 5; 1-6 |
Good one, dabmci. Actually I shoud have phrased my question differnetly, because as you can see from what I wrote after that, it's not that I doubt that the Holy Spirit is God, just that I'm not convinced the Bible teaches that the Spirit is a third and separate person in the godhead.
Now at Jesus' baptism, there was Jesus in the river, the Spirit descending like a dove, and the Father speaking from heaven. that's the one verse that might be used to show that the Holy Spirit is a separate entity from the Father and the Son. But that was a spiritual vision meant to show that Jesus was annointed with the power of the Spirit and had His Father's complete approval. It wasn't meant to show us a revelation of the structure of the godhead. Other verses speak of the Spirit being synonymous with God and Jesus Christ themselves. |
Zathrus,
That was a good one. There are quite a few in the OT as well, BTW
how do you see God or better yet what ways in the bible has he show himself to you? I think that is where my belief in a triune God came from. If my question is confusing I will reword it for you. Not a gramma grad  |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Here is another scripture that Trinitarians use to prove the trinity:
NWT (online http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm): : | Quote: | 1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god
2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence |
KJV: | Quote: | 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. |
Greek Interlinear:
| Quote: | | 1 In original was the saying and the saying was toward the God and God was the saying. 2 This was in original toward the God 3 all through same became and apart from same became not yet one which has become. |
The second verse does not support IMHO a trinitarian stance. What is the first verse trying to convey though?
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus q'd fr John 14: | Quote: | 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. |
I do see how you could interpret it that way. I saw it from a slightly different angle, though.
I read it that Jesus would not abandon them, that he would pray to his Father to send a comforter (in the form of the Holy Spirit) to see them (his apostles) through the trials they would face. Jesus did manifest himself to his apostles in this way and does manifest himself to his disciples even today in this way.
I do believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and not a separate entity (apart from God). Jesus was begat of Holy Spirit. He is not God but has been given full authority over mankind even down to judging and ruling over us. He is Lord. There is but one God but you are right, Zathrus, that Jesus has been given authority over us in every way.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Luvnlife wrote: | Here is another scripture that Trinitarians use to prove the trinity:
NWT (online http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm): : | Quote: | 1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god
2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence |
KJV: | Quote: | 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. |
Greek Interlinear:
| Quote: | | 1 In original was the saying and the saying was toward the God and God was the saying. 2 This was in original toward the God 3 all through same became and apart from same became not yet one which has become. |
The second verse does not support IMHO a trinitarian stance. What is the first verse trying to convey though?
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Doesn't support the Trinitarian stance either. You need three for Trinity and I don't see the third element.
I find that with Trinitarians you ask them for Trinity proofs and they come at you with arguments for Jesus being God thereby changing the argument from Trinity to monotheism in the person of Jesus Christ only. They don't realize that instead of defending Trinity they undermine it.
Then I ask them is Jesus 100% God or is Jesus 33% God as being one of three. Some of them understand what I'm getting but the answer varies with some saying either one or the other, that Jesus is both, or they don't know how to explain it. Go figure! LOL! |
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dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 152
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Ryck,
I would agree with most of your post. Most christains I know can not fully understand God nor can I, and how he shows himself. I am one that believes in a triune God, and to point out scriptures I believe show that as many here have done and I am sure you have read there post there will always come someone else with there spin into what the meanings are. I stand a christain that believesthe God is one,Deuteronomy 6;4. But as I read the scriptures is seems very plain to me that Jesus and the Holy Sprit share that title with the Father. Why would God need a junior god to create anything, How can a created being be perfect? How can Jesus being a created being reedem us for our sins if the bible tells us the all are born with a sin nature?
Just a thought |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I don't see the verse "Hear O Israel, the Lord thye God is ONe Lord..." (Deut 6:4) as being a doctrinal statement on the godhead. I think the statement was intended to put them in mind that they served a living and existent God, not a pantheon of wood or stone idols like the heathen nations around them, and from which they themselves were called.
The absence of a definitive statement of the godhead in scripture leads me to believe it's not as important an issue as Christians these days see it. The closest statement in scripture that I see to a statement of faith on the godhead is 1 Corinthians 8:6
| Quote: | | But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. |
That verse was also written to differentiate between the living God that Christians worship and the idols that the Gentiles worshipped.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
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Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2073
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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dabmci,
| dabmci wrote: | | Why would God need a junior god to create anything, |
God doesn't need anything!!!  God loves to give life and bestow privilege and glory and responsibility upon his intelligent creatures.
| dabmci wrote: | | How can a created being be perfect? |
I take it you do not believe it was in Adam's power to remain sinless? You do not believe Adam was created perfect?
| dabmci wrote: | | How can Jesus being a created being reedem us for our sins if the bible tells us the all are born with a sin nature? |
The Bible tells us "all are born with a sin nature" because it is talking about Adam's offspring who inherited sin from Adam. Do you believe the angels were created with a sinfull nature??? Do you beleive the angels need redemption?
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TBax |
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dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 152
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | dabmci,
| dabmci wrote: | | Why would God need a junior god to create anything, |
| TBax wrote: | | God doesn't need anything!!! God loves to give life and bestow privilege and glory and responsibility upon his intelligent creatures. |
Tipical answer from you. You seem to have the inside on what God was thinking when it came to creation. So God created god (Jesus) to create other people? Well that is how you believe it to be. That sounds like confusion to me.
| dabmci wrote: | | How can a created being be perfect? |
| TBax wrote: | | I take it you do not believe it was in Adam's power to remain sinless? You do not believe Adam was created perfect? |
Sorry I should have made clear that I was talking about after we recieved our curse of being sinful from Adam. I understood that God's created man good or very good not perfect. Gen. 1;31 I could be wrong now.
| dabmci wrote: | | How can Jesus being a created being reedem us for our sins if the bible tells us the all are born with a sin nature? |
The Bible tells us "all are born with a sin nature" because it is talking about Adam's offspring who inherited sin from Adam. Do you believe the angels were created with a sinfull nature??? Do you beleive the angels need redemption? |
 
I don't know you tell me. It seem to me at some point they had the ability to sin or not to sin right? I believe the bible does not say if they needed redemption or not. Why are you talking about angels anyway? |
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