Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby

FAQ

Contact

Profile

Should we pray to Jesus?

Goto page 1, 2 Next

Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> The Trinity Discussion.

Author

Message

fallen4shell
Ferret

Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 123

Location: Arkansas

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: Should we pray to Jesus?

This seemed like the most logical place to post this question, so here goes: Is it Biblical to pray TO Jesus, and if so where in scripture is this talked about?

Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Should we pray to Jesus?

fallen4shell wrote:

This seemed like the most logical place to post this question, so here goes:

Is it Biblical to pray TO Jesus, and if so where in scripture is this talked about?

Well, it is at the fringe. Maybe better asked in the Bible Debate or Doctrine folders.

But to answer your question.

When asked about how one should pray Jesus said that we should pray to "Our Father who art in Heaven". Prayers should be directed to the Father and not to anyone or anything else.

Dartman
Fierce Poodle

Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296

Location: Central Washington State

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Should we pray to Jesus?

Ryck wrote:

fallen4shell wrote:

This seemed like the most logical place to post this question, so here goes:

Is it Biblical to pray TO Jesus, and if so where in scripture is this talked about?

I whole heartedly agree the Father is the one we are commanded to pray to. I believe it is also critical we understand who we should pray THROUGH.

John 16:23 ...Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

james
Tiger

Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 855

Location: Portland, Ore

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject:

Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. And Col 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord Jesus giving thanks to God and the Father by Him.

Nobby
Board - Admin

Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5286

Location: Missouri

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject:

We pray directly to the Almighty God through the son Jesus Christ! In Jesus name, Amen! He intercedes to His Father for us. God bless. Nobby

NuSeeqR
Newbie Alert

Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 4

Location: Texas

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: To Whom Are We Praying

I can really appreciate this thread because I get so confused to hear people praying TO Jesus and then ending the prayer with the classic "in the name of Jesus..." I understand that we are supposed to pray to the Father THROUGH the Son, but how do we take it when the prayer or sermon uses the two terms "Father" and "Jesus" interchangeably? If Jesus IS God, then what is the point of the trinity?

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject:

Nobby wrote:

We pray directly to the Almighty God through the son Jesus Christ!

Do you pray to the Almighty God through the Almighty God?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: To Whom Are We Praying

NuSeeqR wrote:

I can really appreciate this thread because I get so confused to hear people praying TO Jesus and then ending the prayer with the classic "in the name of Jesus..." I understand that we are supposed to pray to the Father THROUGH the Son, but how do we take it when the prayer or sermon uses the two terms "Father" and "Jesus" interchangeably? If Jesus IS God, then what is the point of the trinity?

Sorry, NuSeeqR. I read your post after I posted my question to Nobby. My question appears to be redundant. Embarassed

_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal

Dartman
Fierce Poodle

Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296

Location: Central Washington State

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: To Whom Are We Praying

NuSeeqR wrote:

Wow! Great question!

IMHO, the point of the trinity is confusion.

I have to be careful, though, because the word 'trinity' means different things to different people.

When a seasoned "orthodox" scholar uses the word 'trinity' he/she usually means:
God is 3 persons in one Godhead; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.
Those 3 persons are;
co-equal ... all are equal in authority and power.
co-eternal ...all have lived 'from everlasting to everlasting'.
con-substantial ... all share the same substance.

In my experience, most people who claim to BE trinitarian, just get a puzzled look on their face and go 'huh?' when you attempt to explain this doctrine of the trinity to them.

Their puzzled reaction is no surprise, because this doctrine is FAR removed from the actual teachings of the Bible.

The Bible VERY clearly teaches Jesus as the descendant of Abraham, David and Mary, among others of course. Jesus was born as the result of Jehovah using His power, (the Holy Spirit), to cause a virgin to be pregnant. This is the plan,(logos), of God becoming flesh as explained in John 1.

Jesus was VERY precise and clear that God was/is greater than himself. Jesus DID remark that he and his Father were ONE, but in John 17 makes it very clear that ALL believers can be one in exactly the same sense.

Jesus gave us instructions and examples of praying to his Father. Jesus commanded that those prayers be performed 'in my, (Jesus'), name'.

To get right to the point of your question though, we can't accept a teacher who is confused on the relationship of God and His Son. Nor should we say 'amen' to a prayer that is inappropriate. (2 John)

Nobby
Board - Admin

Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5286

Location: Missouri

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject:

Matt wrote:

Do you pray to the Almighty God through the Almighty God?

Matt I don't know how you pray to our Almighty God.
I know that I always pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.
I've read that Jesus intercedes for us to His Father.
God Bless,
Nobby

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:56 am Post subject:

Nobby wrote:

Matt I don't know how you pray to our Almighty God. I know that I always pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.
I've read that Jesus intercedes for us to His Father.

I pray in the same format (but perhaps not with the same understanding) that you do. I agree that Jesus intercedes for us with the Father. His God and Father is our God and Father.

Those who believe that Jesus is Almighty God are praying "to Almighty God through Almighty God." That phrase sounds odd to me.

My understanding of scripture is that the Father alone is Almighty God. When I pray to the Almighty God (YHWH) I do so through the man, Messiah Jesus.

The options:
(1) Pray to the Almighty God through the Almighty God; or
(2) Pray to the Almighty God through the uniquely begotten human being, Messiah Jesus.

Do you pray to the Almighty God through the Almighty God?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal

NuSeeqR
Newbie Alert

Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 4

Location: Texas

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: To Whom Are We Praying

Dartman wrote:

Jesus was VERY precise and clear that God was/is greater than himself. Jesus DID remark that he and his Father were ONE, but in John 17 makes it very clear that ALL believers can be one in exactly the same sense.

If Jesus is clear that God is Greater than himself, how can they be co-equal? If I look at the trinity in the shape of an equilateral triangle, I would put God at the apex and Jesus and the Holy Spirit on the lower corners. I believe God has some powers and authority greater than Jesus. The way scripture is written we are caused to believe that Jesus was with God at the time of the creation. But God (not Jesus) did the creating. Therefore God has the power to create something from nothing, a power that Jesus does not possess. Where Jesus intercedes for us to gain admission into the Kingdom of Heaven, it seems to me that God rules over the Kingdom. Jesus is a subject within the Kingdom just as we would be. But as the Son of God and intercessor for man he has a governing position, second in command to use a military term. So I see God and Jesus as 'one' but not 'the same'. If they are both GOD then when Jesus talks to God then God is talking to himself; when Jesus is "sitting on the right hand of God" He is sitting beside himself.

Dartman
Fierce Poodle

Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296

Location: Central Washington State

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: To Whom Are We Praying

NuSeeqR wrote:

Dartman wrote:

If Jesus is clear that God is Greater than himself, how can they be co-equal?

That is a very good question, NuSeeeqR. Since the Bible does not say they are co-equal, I would conclude they are NOT.

NuSeeqR wrote:

If I look at the trinity in the shape of an equilateral triangle, I would put God at the apex and Jesus and the Holy Spirit on the lower corners. I believe God has some powers and authority greater than Jesus.

Let me point out the scriptures do not use the word trinity either. But, much more important than that, the scriptures define Jesus as a man,(Acts 17:31,1 Tim 2:5) who is a descendant of Abraham and David. (2 Tim 2:8, Matt 1:1) Who was made lower than the angels, (Heb 2:9), but has inherited God's authority, power and name.

NuSeeqR wrote:

The way scripture is written we are caused to believe that Jesus was with God at the time of the creation.

I do not see scripture teaching Jesus was literally there, but was a key element of God's PLAN before the Father even started the creation.

NuSeeqR wrote:

But God (not Jesus) did the creating. Therefore God has the power to create something from nothing, a power that Jesus does not possess.

AGREED!

NuSeeqR wrote:

Where Jesus intercedes for us to gain admission into the Kingdom of Heaven, it seems to me that God rules over the Kingdom. Jesus is a subject within the Kingdom just as we would be. But as the Son of God and intercessor for man he has a governing position, second in command to use a military term.

VERY close! The difference here is, I read that Jesus is given ALL authority as the KING OF KINGS over the 1,000 year portion of God's kingdom, while the Father rests. (Psa 2, Zech 14, Rev 2:26,27, to name a FEW texts on this)

After that 1000 year period and the Judgment that follows, Jesus turns the kingdom over to his Father. Granted, at NO time is the Father subject to the Son, and the Son is ALWAYS subject to the Father. (See 1 Cor 15:24-28, Rev 21:1-4)

NuSeeqR wrote:

So I see God and Jesus as 'one' but not 'the same'. If they are both GOD then when Jesus talks to God then God is talking to himself; when Jesus is "sitting on the right hand of God" He is sitting beside himself.

Very Good! If we look at Jesus' prayer in John 17, we can see exactly how God and Jesus are one. JUST like the believers can be one with God.

PentecostalFire
Ferret

Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 101

Location: Louisiana

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject:

Nobby wrote:

We pray directly to the Almighty God through the son Jesus Christ!
In Jesus name, Amen!

He intercedes to His Father for us. Very Happy

God bless.
Nobby

How do you explain Acts 7:59 where Stephen prayed directly to Jesus then?

Acts 7:59 - "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

The fact of the matter is, Jesus is the Father! There is no Trinity! Notice, Stephen was calling on GOD, saying "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject:

PentecostalFire wrote:

The fact of the matter is, Jesus is the Father!

Paging Ray Stevens. Smile

Link

Whew! Glad it includes a chart to help keep everything straight.
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal

Display posts from previous:

	Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> The Trinity Discussion.	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2