SO, WHY IS THERE NO HELL?

MrLucas · Alley Cat Joined: 05 Jul 2008 Posts: 196

I've visited this site off and on from time to time. Read a bit about people's comments on hell and the second death and so on. Some say there is no hell as believed by the likes of many fundamentalist Christians, and that this concept of hell is no what the bible means. Can someone who had this belief share. Thanks.

Yehushuan · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:01 am Post subject:

Rev 20:14 KJV And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If hell is destroyed in the lake of fire, as is death, how can it be eternal?

The problem is that the Roman Catholic Church has always held to the policy of incorporating local pagan mythos into its teaching to help the heathen “adjust.” One can easily see this in the differences expressed within Catholic belief as practiced in South America and, say, Germany.

Unfortunately, the Fundamentalist Church in America is extensively coloured by Catholic myth despite its protests. The Reformation was a process of rejection, not creation. Luther was Catholic and, as such, embraced all of Catholic theology from the start. Then only certain pieces (such as the Catholic doctrine of salvation by good works) were rejected. The rest, including the doctrine of hell, and the doctrine of canon, were left unchallenged. Even at the end of his life, Luther held firm to transubstantiation (though he called it consubstantiation) as well as to infant baptism to the point of having the Anabaptists killed. Luther considered Re-baptism to be a work, since in entailed the purposeful action of the believer.

In other words, Fundamental Christianity, as has evolved out of the Reformation, started out Catholic, and while the doctrine of Purgatory was rejected, you will find their doctrines of hell to be remarkably similar (since it was Catholic, hence paganistic in origin, to begin with).

Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago.

dabmci · House Cat Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 152 Location: Wylie

bigape · Fierce Puppy Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 233

Hi everyone

I think the Bible, makes is very clear, that all those who reject Jesus, will burn for ever and ever, in the lake of fire......

FFT · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject:

Because the concept of "hell" as Christians understand it is completely absent in the Old Testament. It didn't make its way in until the New Testament and as a result of pagan influences.

Plus the concept of eternal torture for temporal crimes is pretty abhorrent.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

Hawkins · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject:

Hell is a place void of God and is a place reserved for the unsaved, disregarding its physical location.

Hades, or part of Hades is such a location, thus Hades or part of it is usually called Hell, or the darkness or the gloomy dungeons.

After the final judgment, Hades and death will be thrown to the Lake of Fire. The wicked with Satan and his angels will be burned there.

Zathrus · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject:

Some great points made in this thread already. I wish I could locate one of the old threads where this has been discussed. I was also going to point out that there is no teaching to an afterlife of fiery eternal torture for the wicked taught in the old testament, and FFT has beat me to it.

I want to share a few passages from the old testament which many Christians who read mainly the new testament may never have read or thought much about. The new testament says that the apostles taught only that which was written in the law and the prophets. They taught that the fulfillment of God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ was what the law and prophets were all about, and that they were witnesses to the fulfillment of it all. They were clear that they were not teaching things they'd come up with themselves, but only what the law and prophets said should come.

I say that because if the passages in the new testament that speak of unquenchable fire, the worm dying not, the smoke of their torment going up forever, and so forth were teachings that came from the law and the prophets, then we should look in the law and the prophets and find them. And if we find no teaching of an everlasting fiery afterlife of torment taught there, then we should ask what is taught there, for that will be what the new testament passages that quote from the old testament will be about also.

One of the earliest passages in the Bible where I recognize language that was later quoted in the new testament to speak about hell or the judgement of the wicked is in Deut 29

Hawkins · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject:

Well, you have to say and confirm that you are a better interpreter than those chosen by God, in order for your speculation to be firmly true.

While Christians will have to rely on the Bible itself, the Church and the Holy Spirit to understand what the Bible says, noone else can be "more authenticated". That's the point.

Yehushuan · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject:

Yehushuan · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject:

Hi bigape,

May I kindly point out that the torment described in Revelation 20:10 very clearly says absolutely nothing about humans in hell?

And far from being “very clear,” the KJV translation of “for ever and ever” does not adequately convey the concept of “εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων.” Even the Young’s Literal, which reads “tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages” still cannot convey the Greek concept of a AION. You may choose to interpret the phrase “to the ages of the ages” to mean “for the rest of eternity” but that is not what the author meant. It is unfortunate that the translators of the KJV did not know that Koine Greek even existed. It is even more unfortunate that supposedly educated Christians don’t know this.

But the real problem is that the Greek word "basanidzo" does NOT mean torture or torment.

Slater defines this word to mean “TEST with a touchstone”

The Liddell Lexicon defines the word as follows:

I. to rub gold upon the touch-stone … to try the genuineness of a thing, to put to the test, make proof of

II. to examine closely or cross-question persons by applying torture.

In Revelation 20:10, the “toment” isn’t about eternal active punishment inflicting pain for its own sake as a means for retribution, but about putting to the test the actions and teachings of the entities identified in the verse.

Basanidzo means interrogation.

Rev 20:10 KJV+ And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be interrogated day and night for ever and ever.

If nothing else, at least the KJV did not add in the word “they” as in “they shall be tormented” (even though you misinterpreted it this way). There is nothing in the Greek text to clarify just what is being “proven genuine” (basanidzo’d) or "tested" day and night for ever and ever. So we have a better reading here:

Rev 20:10 KJV+ And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and such shall be mistrusted by constant testing (i.e. day and night for ever and ever).

And one is left to divine guidance to realize that “such” indicates the deceptions of the devil, not the sentient creatures themselves (unless you really think God needs to interrogate the devil for some reason). God doesn't need to torment these people forever and ever. WE need to basanidzo their lies constantly.

Yehu

(Now need I strafe Rev. 14:11 as well?)
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago.

MrLucas · Alley Cat Joined: 05 Jul 2008 Posts: 196

Fascinating stuff. Great replies. I want to read more. I wonder if I can hunt out some past threads on the subject.

It doesn't make sense that God would introduce punishment for sin as eternal suffering in the new testament (how do you spell that?) and not the old. He'd be altering the rules and not adequately warn of consequences.

MrLucas · Alley Cat Joined: 05 Jul 2008 Posts: 196

dabmci · House Cat Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 152 Location: Wylie

Zathrus · Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:52 am Post subject:

bigape · Fierce Puppy Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 233

Hi Yehushuan

You make a good point.

I will take another look at my interpretation, of “these verses”.
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Although, there are many other Scriptures, that support “an eternal punishment”, these may not be, the ones to use.

See you later.
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Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it.