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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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 Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Yehu,
BigApe and I went at it one on one a while back. I guess he and I are just on different pages.
By the way I noticed that You said in another post that you were heading to Cornell. Are your referring to the University in Ithaca?
You will probably drive right by my house.
JB |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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(If you live on route 79, then I already have.)
I was standing on the hills of Cornell facing Ohio when I let out a scream of spiritual anguish that took down the NY power grid, what, four years ago?
(It wasn't intentional.)
If you wish to PM me, we would love to attend service this Sunday. (I play recorder and quite often sit in with the "worship team" when visiting various churches, but that's rather besides the point.)
You know, I am now intruigued enough to go sleuthing and actually just show up this Sunday, but my time is too short, and my posting has cut into my bagpipe practice time.
Yehu
PS: Last Sunday was 443, wouldn't it be wild to get to 444 at your place?
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6288
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Hawkins wrote: | | Well, you have to say and confirm that you are a better interpreter than those chosen by God, in order for your speculation to be firmly true. |
Not really that hard since "those chosen by God" bent over backwards trying to fit Jesus into the Messiah requirements by making up new ones but hey that deserves a thread all on its own where almost everyone can disagree with me.
| Yehushuan wrote: | | The only other one around here that has any clue about how that church lived is Golfjack (ok, maybe Zathrus). |
Hey now. Just because I don't by any means follow the way the early church lived doesn't mean I don't understand it.
| bigape wrote: | | But maybe, you don’t believe, that God’s has preserved His Word for us, and so we are stuck having to wait for “the Father to fall into our lap”. |
What's the evidence that God preserved His word? Is it mentioned anywhere in the Bible that He preserves it through translations?
| bigape wrote: | Is Yehushuan saying, that the early Church didn’t believe in a fiery hell.
(But that can’t be the case, because Hell is also found in the Old Testament!) |
Not in the sense that Christians believe in Hell. The words translated "Hell" in the Old Testament typically mean either "the grave" or "gehinnom" which has already been explained.
| bigape wrote: | Deuteronomy 32:22
“For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.” |
Here it's just "lowest graves of the Earth" or "lowest depths of the Earth."
| bigape wrote: | Isaiah 33:14
“The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?” |
Look at it in context.
| bigape wrote: | Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.” |
A reference to Gehinnom. The worm that doesn't die? Maggots. And the trash fires were kept burning there. It was where you were "buried" if you did not deserve a true funeral.
| bigape wrote: | Psalms 92:7
“When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; [it is] that they shall be destroyed for ever:” |
Sounds like exactly the opposite of Hell to me.
| bigape wrote: | 2 Samuel 22:6
“The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;” |
Grave again.
| bigape wrote: | Job 26:6
“Hell [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.” |
Grave again.
| bigape wrote: | Psalms 9:17
“The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.” |
Grave again.
| bigape wrote: | Psalms 16:10
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” |
Grave again, and it's "my life" not "my soul."
| bigape wrote: | Psalms 18:5
“The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.” |
Exactly the same as 2 Samuel 22:6 and still just about the grave.
| bigape wrote: | Psalms 55:15
“Let death seize upon them, [and] let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness [is] in their dwellings, [and] among them.” |
Grave again. Actually the verse implies being buried alive.
| bigape wrote: | Psalms 86:13
“For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.” |
Grave/depths again. Honestly this is getting boring. It's already been pointed out to you what Hebrew words get translated "hell," running a term search on the Bible and spewing the verses everywhere doesn't really make any point except that you're unwilling to learn.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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FFT:
If you think we have difficulty understanding one another today, try to put your head into the world view of a person living 2000 years ago.
A volcano was considered to be the literal doorway to the literal place called hell.
Heyu.
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6288
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Reminds of Empedocles
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I just noticed this thread a few hours ago, and went back and read/skimmed the posts. Some interesting comments have been made. Some partial truths and some puzzling comments also, which isn't surprising. 
The Old Testament and the New Testament are united in "Hell" being 'the grave'. When you have 'hell' being cast into the 'lake of fire', it is pretty clear that 'hell' isn't the same AS the 'lake of fire'.
Both the OT and the NT describe death as follows:
'sleep' (roughly 50 times),
'no thought' Psa 146:4, Eccl 9:10,
'know not anything' Eccl 9:5,
'NOT alive' Isa 38:1, Rev 20:5
'return to dust' Gen 3:19,
'sleep in the dust' Dan 12:1,2
The Bible, if read without bias, teaches that there is life AFTER death. It does NOT teach there is life DURING death. The belief in life during death is found in pagan mythology, and gradually crept into the church beginning in the second century, like trinitarianism. What the Bible teaches is wonderfully summarized by Paul in Acts 17, as he explained God's plan to the pagan Athenians. The big shocker to them was the concept of RESURRECTION. This is in stark contrast to the idea of life during death, but a crystal clear endorsement of life AFTER death.
Once the righteous are given eternal life, and the wicked are destroyed in the 'lake of fire', there will be no more death, no more grave.
The finality of the 'lake of fire' is eternal. In other words, Satan, the Beast, the False Prophet and all of those not found 'written in the book of life' will cease to exist forever. NO ONE will be able to quench that fire, but it will go out.
Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. |
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MrLucas
Alley Cat
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 196
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: . |
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| That's an interesting post, Dartman. And there's been interesting posts from others too. So, why is the concept of hell so misunderstood by much of the christian church - especially fundamentalist christians? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: Re: . |
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| MrLucas wrote: | | So, why is the concept of hell so misunderstood by much of the christian church - especially fundamentalist christians? |
Great question. I can venture a few guesses.
1.) Various Hebrew and Greek words all got translated as "hell" when the bible was translated to other languages. We read these verse and think they're talking about the same thing.
2.) While the concept that the grave or Sheol is just being dead is easy enough to wrap our brain around, the prophetic language of everlasting fire and torment is a little harder to understand for a 21st century Westerner. It requires getting into the old testament Hebrew mind, and we find it much easier to just take statements in the Bible literally.
3). We already have an established doctrine about hell that's been handed down to us and which the church has taught for many generations. Many are comfortable with it and would be put out, or even scared to question it.
Here is a tidbit I heard: the English word hell is from an old English word that merely means "a hole in the ground". A pit.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: Re: . |
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| MrLucas wrote: | | That's an interesting post, Dartman. And there's been interesting posts from others too. So, why is the concept of hell so misunderstood by much of the christian church - especially fundamentalist christians? |
I would agree with much of what Zathrus posted, I might reverse the order however...
Looking at church history, and discussing with many that hold the "orthodox" views on this topic, the main culprit is the polluting influence of the pagan beliefs that make up almost EVERY other religion of the world. (When you remember that the very first lie on record was "You will not surely die", you should not be surprised to find this doctrine as the core belief of false religion, and you should recognize the source of this myth). There is an old story I have used many times to illustrate the principle I believe Satan is using here.
The story goes: A VERY lucky man caught a leprechaun! And, according to legend, all leprechauns have a Pot-o-gold. The leprechaun tried every wiggle and squirm in the book to get loose, but no luck for him that day. So he promised to show the man the location of his Pot-o-gold if the man would promise to release him. Deep in the forest, under an immense gnarled oak, he had buried a HUGE cast iron kettle filled to the brim with gold items of every sort. The man quickly realized he would not be able to carry this much away, so pondered how to solve this problem. He removed a yellow scarf from his neck and tied it to the tree, then he forced the leprechaun to give two more promises,
1. He could not move the pot.
2. He could not move the scarf.
The leprechaun, realizing he was out foxed, cried and begged, but in the end gave in, and promised.
The man quickly filled his pockets to capacity, and set off for home, and saddled his mule to pack the rest of the gold. When the man returned to the general area of the forest where the Pot-o-gold was hidden, he was dismayed to see hundreds of yellow scarves tied to every old oak in sight. He searched for years, but was never able to locate the Pot-o-gold.
By the way, this is NOT a true story!
But, the principle of hiding something by creating hundreds of fakes, or decoys, is fairly well illustrated.
That concludes 'Story Time', milk and cookies in the kitchen! |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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A few more passages of scripture to consider:
Isaiah 24
| Quote: | 1Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. |
Isaiah 24 seems to be talking about the curse of Adam, or perhaps the curse of the law. The fire is the curse. It is talking about people on earth, in this life, not about an afterlife.
It would stand to reason then that when Jesus came to deliver those who believed from the curse of the law, those who did not believe were spoken of as being tormented in flames (remaining under the curse) forever.
From Jeremiah 51:
| Quote: | 55Because the LORD hath spoiled Babylon, and destroyed out of her the great voice; when her waves do roar like great waters, a noise of their voice is uttered:
56Because the spoiler is come upon her, even upon Babylon, and her mighty men are taken, every one of their bows is broken: for the LORD God of recompences shall surely requite.
57And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.
58Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The broad walls of Babylon shall be utterly broken, and her high gates shall be burned with fire; and the people shall labour in vain, and the folk in the fire, and they shall be weary. |
This passage is about the demise of Babylon. Also an earthly occurence, not in the afterlife. In verse 58, it mentions Babylon's gates being burned with fire. This could be a literal prophecy of invasion and war. But the part about the people laboring in vain and being weary again suggests the curse of Adam to me, not literally being burned as the city burned. The part about them being in the fire suggests a connection between their laboring under the curse and the fire.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3320
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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An important point to proper interpretation is understanding what "fire" means. Here is "theeee" key verse;
Jer 23:29 [Is] not **my word** like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer [that] breaketh the rock in pieces?
It is not that the law per say is the fire, but the Lord's words that are as fire. This includes the law and all other words spoken by the Lord through his prophets and by Jesus.
Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
That is why it can be said our faith is tried by fire (the word of the Lord)
Quite simply, the words of the Lord cannot be broken unless he himself reverses them or repents, if you like, of the words he has spoken. That is why Jesus says, the scriptures cannot be broken.
| Zathrus wrote: | 5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isaiah 24 seems to be talking about the curse of Adam, or perhaps the curse of the law. The fire is the curse. It is talking about people on earth, in this life, not about an afterlife. |
The everlasting covenant is first spoken of to Noah, not to Adam.
Gen 9:8 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.
Gen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This [is] the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that [is] upon the earth.
This partially explains Peter's elusive reference to Jesus visiting the spirits in prison in the days before the flood because the everlasting covenant had not been established till after the flood.
Although the prophecy concerning Babylon being burned does have the literal consequence of their destruction, it is the Lord's word against them that is the very source of the fire.
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: |
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This is great stuff, Mojo!!
| MoJo wrote: | An important point to proper interpretation is understanding what "fire" means. Here is "theeee" key verse;
Jer 23:29 [Is] not **my word** like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer [that] breaketh the rock in pieces? |
Absolutely!!
| MoJo, quoting the book of Hebrews wrote: | | Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire. |
I think this one is really important to keep in mind. The wicked are destroyed by the presence of God. The Psalmist wrote about it too:
Ps 68:
| Quote: | 1Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God |
.
Now compare Psalm 68 and the verses in Isaiah 33 which you quoted with this verse in Revelation 14:
| Quote: | | 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: |
Here we don't see the wicked removed from the presence of the Lord, but tried by it and unable to stand in it.
We worship Him in His presence. The wicked are consumed by it. It is life to us, it is death to them.
| MoJo wrote: | The everlasting covenant is first spoken of to Noah, not to Adam.
Gen 9:8 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.
Gen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This [is] the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that [is] upon the earth. |
The bow in the cloud is seen again when John is before the throne in Revelation. This everlasting covenant speaks of life and salvation and deliverance.
So it's that covenant that Isaiah said men had forsaken. Perhaps to put their trust in the ministration of death instead? That would explain the curse and the fire coming on them.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: Re: SO, WHY IS THERE NO HELL? |
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| MrLucas wrote: | | I've visited this site off and on from time to time. Read a bit about people's comments on hell and the second death and so on. Some say there is no hell as believed by the likes of many fundamentalist Christians, and that this concept of hell is no what the bible means. Can someone who had this belief share. Thanks. |
The English Word Hell
The old English word hell comes from helan, and means to cover or conceal. Similar words coming from the same root have a similar meaning.
Hill for example is a mound of dirt or stone that covers the level surface of earth. Hull is the covering of a nut or the covered part of a ship. Heal is the covering of a wound. Hall is a building space which is used to cover people or goods. Hole is an uncovering. Shell.
In the early days to hell potatoes meant to cover them, as to store them in a cellar or underground. To hel a house meant to cover a portion of it with tile. The term heling a house is still used in the New England portions of the United States.
At first the use of hell had no pagan meaning to it. It was simply used as the common grave of man. To go to hell in the old English language meant simply that one was dead and buried. It was in Germany and England that the word began to evolve into the pagan unscriptural meaning of eternal punishment.
Poor Translation
The original meaning of the word hell is not so much a poor translation of the Hebrew sheohl (English Transliteration sheol) and the Greek Haides (English transliteration hades), however, as the word has evolved into a pagan meaning the modern day translation of hell is misleading.
The Catholic Douay Version translates sheohl as hell 64 times and once as death. The King James Version translates sheohl 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave and 3 times as pit.
This is common in older translations as well, such as is used by the English Revised Version (1885) where sheohl is transliterated in many cases but most of the occurrences were translated as grave, or pit. Hell being used 14 times. The American Standard Version (1901) transliterated sheohl in all 65 occurrences and haides in all ten of its occurrences, though the Greek word Geenna (English Gehenna) is translated hell.
The Hebrew Sheohl
The Hebrew word sheohl is the unseen resting place of the dead. It is not to be mistaken for the Hebrew words for individual burial place ( qever - Judges 16:31 ), grave ( qevurah - Genesis 35:20 ), or individual tomb ( gadhish - Job 21:32 ) but rather the common grave of all mankind whatever the form of burial might be.
The Greek teaching of the immortality of the human soul and hell began to infiltrate Jewish teachings probably around the time of Alexander The Great. The Bible itself, however, is in stark contrast to the teachings of pagan origin regarding the soul, which is not immortal ( Ezekiel 18:4 ) and therefore can't suffer forever in hell. The Bible also teaches that there is no consciousness in hell. ( Ecclesiastes 9:4-10 ).
Sheol corresponds with the Greek Haides, both being the unseen resting place of the dead. It is not a place of fire, but of darkness ( Job 10:21 ) a place of silence ( Psalm 115:17 ) rather than a place filled with tortured screams.
The Greek Haides
The Greek word Haides corresponds to the Hebrew Sheohl as is indicated by the apostle Peter's reference to Psalm 16:10 at Acts 2:27-31 where Jesus had fulfilled David's prophecy that Jesus would not be left in hell. Likewise Jesus himself said that like Jonah, he would spend three days in hell. ( Jonah 1:17 - Jonah 2:2 / Matthew 12:40 )
The Greek word Haides occurs 10 times in the Christian Greek scriptures. ( Matthew 11:23 / Matthew 16:18 / Luke 10:15 / Luke 16:23 / Acts 2:27 / Acts 2:31 / Revelation 1:18 / Revelation 6:8 / Revelation 20:13 / Revelation 20:14 ).
It means the unseen place. In ten of the occurrences of haides it is in reference to death. It is not to be confused with the Greek word for grave ( taphos ), tomb ( mnema ) or memorial tomb ( mnemeion ), but is rather the common resting place of the dead. The place of death.
Jesus also uses haides at Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15 in a figurative way to indicate the debasement of Capernaum compared to heaven.
Also see The Rich Man And Lazarus below.
The Greek Gehenna
Unlike the Hebrew sheohl and the Greek haides, there is really no excuse for mistaking the Greek Geenna (Hebrew Geh Hinnom - English Transliteration Gehenna) with the notion of any hell, either the old English word meaning covered or the pagan hell of today's Christianity.
The Christian Greek Gehenna is a literal place - a valley that lies South and South-West of ancient Jerusalem. It is the modern day Wadi er-Rababi ( Ge Ben Hinnom ), a deep, narrow valley.
Today it is a peaceful and pleasant valley, unlike the surrounding dry and rocky terrain, and most certainly unlike the pagan / apostate Christian hell.
In the days of unfaithful Kings Manasseh and Ahaz idolatrous worship of the pagan god Baal was conducted in the place which was then known as Geh Hinnom, ( the valley of Hinnom ) including human sacrifices to fire. It is ironic that the pagan custom burning in fire would have so clearly infiltrated the Christian teachings, considering that this practice was a detestable thing to Jehovah God, and his prophets spoke of a time when this place would be turned into a defiled and desolate place. ( 2 Chronicles 28:1-3 / 2 Chronicles 33:1-6 / Jeremiah 7:31-32 / Jeremiah 32:35 ).
The prophecy was fulfilled in the days of faithful King Josiah, who had the place, especially the area known as Topeth polluted into a refuse heap. ( 2 Kings 23:10 )
So it was that in the days of Jesus and the early Christian congregations, that the valley was known as a literal place where the carcasses of criminals and animals were thrown, having no hope for resurrection. The refuse there was kept burning with sulphur, which is abundant in the area. When Jesus used Gehenna as a figurative - a symbolic reference to the spiritually dead the people in the area knew what he was talking about.
The Greek Tartarus
The Greek word Tartarus is found only once in scripture, at 2 Peter 2:4. It is often mistranslated as hell. Tartarus in the Christian Greek scriptures refers to a condition of debasement, unlike the pre-Christian pagan tartarus ( Homer's Iliad ) which is a mythological prison.
Peter refers to the angels who in the time of Noah foresook thier original positions and became men in order to have relations with the women of earth. The result was their offspring being giants, the Nephilim, who caused so much trouble God had to bring forth the flood. ( Genesis 6:1-4 / Ephesians 6:10-12 / Jude 1:6 ).
It is interesting that this verse is often mistranslated because when Jesus was resurrected from Sheol / Hades ( Hell in some translations ) on earth, he first went to tartarus - that is to say the disobedient angels whom had been lowered in position - who happened to be in heaven. This means that if you don't understand the mistranslation you would see Jesus go to hell on earth and then hell in heaven.
The Pagan Hell
The Pagan teaching of hell was adopted by the apostate Christian church. Today's thinking of hell comes more from Dante's Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost, but the teaching of hellfire is much older than the English word hell or Dante and Milton. It comes from Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs of a nether world. A place where gods and demons of great strength and fierceness presided over the damned.
Ancient Egyptian beliefs considered the Other World to be a place of pits of fire for the damned though they didn't think this lasted forever.
Islamic teaching considers hell as a place of everlasting punishment. Hindus and Buddhists think of hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration.
Separation From God
Hell ( as is often translated from the Hebrew Sheohl ) can't be a separation from God, since God is in effect there - it is in front of him. He watches sheol for the time when the dead shall be resurrected. ( Proverbs 15:11 / Psalm 139:7-8 / Amos 9:1-2 )
Lazarus And The Rich Man - Luke 16:19-31
Jesus often taught people in a way which was easy for them to grasp. One way of doing this is through parables, or illustration. They are stories, which are not meant to be taken as literal accounts. Such is the case with the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Notice that the Rich man is buried in hades. If this account is to be taken literally then the Bible would contradict itself with all of the information being given in this post, but lets not leave it up to what may be thought to be my own personal interpretation.
Let it also be known that if this account is to be taken literally then that would make Jesus a liar. How so? How could Lazarus be at the bosom of Abraham in heaven when Jesus had already said that no man had ascended to heaven other than himself? ( John 3:13 )
The Lake Of Fire
The lake of fire is sometimes referred to as hell. This isn't even worth mentioning in my opinion because the lake of fire is obviously a symbolic reference to everlasting destruction. Since hell itself is cast into the lake of fire along with death and Satan, all of this ties up rather nicely in that Adam's sin brought death. Had Adam not sinned therefore he wouldn't have died. Jesus takes away sin so the meek shall inherit the earth and live forever upon it. Death will be no more. Sin will be no more. Hell ( the common grave of mankind ) will be no more and Satan will be no more.
Reference
"Sheol was located somewhere 'under' the earth . . . . The state of the dead was one of neither pain nor pleasure. Neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked was associated with Sheol. The good and bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and gentiles - all slept together without awareness of one another." - Encyclpædia Britannica (1971, Vol. 11, p. 276)
"Hades . . . it corresponds to 'Sheol' in the O.T. and N.T., it has been unhappily rendered 'hell' " - Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2 p. 187)
"First it (Hell) stands for the Hebrew Sheohl of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament . Since Sheohl in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word 'hell,' as understood today, is not a happy translation." - Collier's Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28)
"Much Confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheohl and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception." - The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81)
"The word ( sheol ) occurs often in the Psalms and in the book of Job to refer to the place to which all dead people go. It is represented as a dark place, in which there is no activity worthy of the name. There are no moral distinction there, so 'hell' ( KJV ) is not a suitable translation, since that suggests a contrast with 'heaven' as the dwelling-place of the righteous after death. In a sense, 'the grave' in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together . . . . The use of this particular imagery may have been considered suitable here [ in Jonah 2:2 ] in view of Jonah's imprisonment in the interior of the fish." - A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida, 1978, p 37 |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 644
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: What Should We Do if a Belief is Proven Wrong? |
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We have a question for bigape (not that it's directed at you, bigape, but that we trust you to give us the best answer):
With all the evidence against the traditional interpretation of hell (as well as the current view of "eternal separation from God", as promoted by Lee Strobel's book, A Case for Faith), what should a person (who holds the traditional view) do, when they discover that their traditional belief is incorrect?
Should they continue believing the traditional view, or should they discard the traditional view and study instead to find the truth? |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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