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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Zathrus
You pointed out to me.......
| Quote: | “Do you see that Yehu is pointing out that the apostles and the early church did not have the new testament? Matthew through Revelation were missing from their Bibles! So what did they base their faith on?”
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Yes, I saw that he was making this point:
But can you explain to me, what this has to do, with the subject of this post?
“SO, WHY IS THERE NO HELL?”
Is Yehushuan saying, that the early Church didn’t believe in a fiery hell.
(But that can’t be the case, because Hell is also found in the Old Testament!)
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I can’t seem to get past his sarcasm, to the point, that he is trying to make.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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MrLucas
Alley Cat
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 196
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: . |
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| One thing I've heard or read somewhere along the way is that the Pharisees believed in the punishment of eternal suffering. Is this true? I thought this was interesting as the portrayal of Jesus in the new testament seems very against the Pharisees and their so called ministry and their view of God. It doesn't seem that their perception and Jesus's perception of God and punishment is likely to have been the same. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5286
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Show the word Hell in the Old Testament?
Nobby
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5286
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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PS: Fact show it to me before the book of Matt. (Hell)
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Nobby
Here are just a few.......
Deuteronomy 32:22
“For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.”
Isaiah 33:14
“The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?”
Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
Psalms 92:7
“When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; [it is] that they shall be destroyed for ever:”
Psalms 58:10-11
V.10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
V.11 So that a man shall say, Verily [there is] a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
More will come later.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some more........
2 Samuel 22:6
“The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;”
Job 26:6
“Hell [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.”
Psalms 9:17
“The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.”
Psalms 16:10
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
Psalms 18:5
“The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.”
Psalms 55:15
“Let death seize upon them, [and] let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness [is] in their dwellings, [and] among them.”
Psalms 86:13
“For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.”
Psalms 116:3
“The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.”
Psalms 139:8
“If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].”
Proverbs 5:5
“Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.”
Proverbs 7:27
“Her house [is] the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.”
Proverbs 9:18
“But he knoweth not that the dead [are] there; [and that] her guests [are] in the depths of hell.”
Proverbs 15:11
“Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?”
Proverbs 15:24
“The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.”
Isaiah 5:14
“Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”
Isaiah 14:9
“Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.”
Isaiah 14:15
“Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”
Isaiah 28:15
“Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:”
Ezekiel 32:27
“And they shall not lie with the mighty [that are] fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though [they were] the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.”
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: |
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BigApe,
You made the statement:
| Quote: | | How can one save soles (souls) with out the book? |
Please don't take this the wrong way. But you seem to place more emphasis on scriptures (KJV onlyism) than you do the Word of God.
John 5:39 is clear that salvation doesn't find its source in scriptures but in the Word.
This text starts with:
you search: (eranuate) The context of this idea is in the present active indicative mood second person.
The indicative mood is, in general, the mood of assertion, or presentation of certainty. They were certain that they would find salvation in the scriptures. While they had the right idea, they were looking , they totally missed the point.
It is not correct to say that it is the mood of certainty or reality. This idea belongs to the presentation. ( the indicative may present something as being certain or real, though the speaker might not believe it).
In this case, Jesus was making a point. You search , because you think (oti umeis dokeite).
Since Jesus is referring to the scriptures (tas graphas) plural. This text is clearly referring to the Old Testament reference to His coming and His work on the cross. The scriptures, themselves are powerless to save.
Jesus was making a clear point. The scriptures aren't given for eternal life but as a witness of eternal life.
JB |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Hi JB
When I made the statement......
| Quote: | | “How can one save soles (souls) with out the book?” |
I was talking about, statements like this.......
| Quote: | John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
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--------------------------------------------------
You said.......
| Quote: | “But you seem to place more emphasis on scriptures (KJV onlyism) than you do the Word of God.”
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My statements have had nothing to do with (KJV onlyism), but with something more basic than that:
When I say “the book”, I am talking about “(almost),any Bible”?
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In the verse, that you sited....
| Quote: | John 5:39
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”
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The Lord said, “Search the scriptures”: Now regardless of what “mood” is meant by this statement, “the scriptures”, is referring to “the Book”
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The reason “the Book” is so important, is because without it, we are at the mercy of man: (Scholars, theologians & linguistic experts).
But with “the Book”, we can bypass all of them, and get the truth right from the LORD!
Psalms 119:99
“I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies [are] my meditation.”
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| bigape wrote: | But can you explain to me, what this has to do, with the subject of this post?
“SO, WHY IS THERE NO HELL?” |
What did your statement that you can't save soles (I realize you meant souls of men, not fish, though we are fishers of men, right?) without the book have to do with the topic of hell? I realized that along with bringing up the point of the teachig of eternal fiery torment being Catholic/pagan doctrine, the Catholic doctrine of canon was also brought up, and I do not want to derail the thread with that. But I felt I had to comment on your error in reasoning.
In considering what place the written new testament has in our walk of faith, I think we must keep in mind that the 1st century church did not have it. Christians today always want to get back to the power and annointing of the 1st century church. The church which Jesus founded, and over which Paul, Peter, John and the others were apostles did not receive power, annointing and salvation by having the written new testament. What did they have? The same thing we have! A heart relationship with the living, risen Lord! The power to save souls is not in ink on paper, though I believe we do live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. The power to save souls is in the living person of Jesus Christ.
I think Yehu can speak for himself as to exactly what his point is, but I wanted to point out to you that maybe you were missing the fact (and I am sure you are aware of it and will agree) that we are saved by the risen Lord Jesus, not the Bible.
| bigape wrote: | | I can’t seem to get past his sarcasm, to the point, that he is trying to make. |
 I know what you mean. He's not such bad guy if you read what he has to say and give it a bit of thought.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Hi Zathrus
You asked.......
| Quote: | “What did your statement that you can't save soles without the book have to do with the topic of hell?”
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Well this statement, was in response to something that Yehushuan had said:
Yehushuan said......
| Quote: | “The KJV was one of the worst disasters to ever wash over the Gospel, creating a culture of Evangelical-ism that would be quite foreign to Jesus. (As if God was more interested in writing a book than in saving souls.)”
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He brought up saving souls, so I responded.
--------------------------------------------------
You also asked.......
| Quote: | “Christians today always want to get back to the power and annointing of the 1st century church. The church which Jesus founded, and over which Paul, Peter, John and the others were apostles did not receive power, annointing and salvation by having the written new testament. What did they have?”
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They had the Lord Himself(Paul met Him on the road).
And for the next few hundred years, the Church had “the original”(and accurate copies), of epistles of Paul, John & Peter.
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You also said.....
| Quote: | “The power to save souls is not in ink on paper, though I believe we do live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. The power to save souls is in the living person of Jesus Christ.”
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You are wrong.
If is wasn’t for “ink on paper”, none of us would know who Jesus really is.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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BigApe,
You quoted:
| Quote: | John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” |
Take note that Jesus said, he who hears. You can read the scriptures all day long but that doesn't necessarily mean that you will hear.
Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Word in this text is rema not scriptures. God must enlighten the heart for one to hear. The scriptures don't enlighten, God enlightens.
I admire your love for the scriptures but the Pharisees also had a love for the scriptures and as a matter of fact their love for the scriptures became more important to them than truth.
JB |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Hi JB
My interpretation of.......
John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
and
Romans 10:17
“So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Is that people “hear it”, by the preaching and teaching of God’s Word!
--------------------------------------------------
You said.....
| Quote: | “God must enlighten the heart for one to hear. The scriptures don't enlighten, God enlightens.”
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Well, I agree with half of your statement;
Yes, “God must enlighten the heart for one to hear”:
| Quote: | 1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.”
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But, the Scriptures, do give us light.....
| Quote: | Psalms 119:11
“Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.”
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because....
| Quote: | John 1:14
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
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--------------------------------------------------
You also said....
| Quote: | “I admire your love for the scriptures but the Pharisees also had a love for the scriptures and as a matter of fact their love for the scriptures became more important to them than truth.”
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I don’t believe, the wicked Pharisees, truly “loved the Word”:
If they had, they would have trusted in Christ.
What the really loved, was the praise of men.....
John 12:43
“For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Would Job's interrogation and rebuke by God at the end of the book be hostile enough to qualify as basanidzo? Or is basanidzo more of a test of one's mettle by affliction and adverse circumstances? |
No idea. I know enough to avoid Hebrew like a Biblical Plague. But it would seem obvious that Satan wanted Job "basanidzo'd."
However, for each Hebrew word in a lexicon, there's an arm's length list of like fifty synonyms, with all sorts of nuance overtones in English that bleed into ever more speculative interpretation.
I'd check for you in the Septuagint, but I'm leaving shortly for Cornell, and my tools aren't all that good. (Meaning it really takes a long time.)
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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BigApe,
You said:
I don’t believe, the wicked Pharisees, truly “loved the Word”: If they had, they would have trusted in Christ.
I didn't say word, I said scriptures. I differentiate between the two. Here is how I see this. The Pharisees read the scriptures and studied the scriptures and read the Mishna and studied the Mishnah and in all of that reading and studying, the truth of Christ wasn't revealed to them. When The scriptures are read and truth is revealed those scriptures become revelation or the spoken word.
Big difference.
JB |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
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(light the fuse and run away)
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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