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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Hi Yehushuan
| Quote: | Revelation 20:10
And <2532> the devil <1228> that deceived <4105> (5723) them <846> was cast <906> (5681) into <1519> the lake <3041> of fire <4442> and <2532> brimstone <2303>, where <3699> the beast <2342> and <2532> the false prophet <5578> are, and <2532> shall be tormented <928> (5701) day <2250> and <2532> night <3571> for <1519> ever <165> and ever <165>.
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“shall be tormented” <928>
| Quote: | (Strongs)928.
basanizw basanizo bas-an-id’-zo; from 931; to torture:— pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
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| Quote: | (Thayer)G928 βασανί?ω basanizō?
(1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
(2) to question by applying torture
(3) to torture
(4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
(5) to be harassed, distressed
(5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Part of Speech: verb
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“ever” <165> “and ever” <165>
| Quote: | 165. aiwn aion ahee-ohn’; from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past);
by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—
age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), [ n-]ever,
(beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.
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| Quote: | 165 aiwn aion ahee-ohn’ from the same as 104; TDNT-1:197,31; n m
AV-ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
For Synonyms see entry 5921
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It looks like to me, that the KJV, hit the nail right on the head:
Revelation 20:10, says what it means, and means what it says.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| bigape wrote: | | It looks like to me, that the KJV, hit the nail right on the head: |
One must realize, though, that Strong's is a concordance, not a lexicon. The words at the end of an entry in Strong's are not "definitions," but rather comprise a list of what English words are used in the KJV. I continually run into people (not saying you are one of them) that think the KJV must have been correctly translated because their Strong's "dictionary" has the same word in it, not realizing that Strong TOOK the word from the KJV and is merely showing you which words the KJV translators used. Strong’s tells you what is already IN the KJV, not what is supposed to be in the KJV. (Remember, this was before computers could do word searches for you.) I believe that any publication of Strong's Concordance that doesn't use some special symbol like "♦" or "●" to identify when the list starts are misleading to the common reader.
In a similar vein, no one with any amount of education would possibly use Thayer (link) . His lexicon was obsolete even before it was published (1890), in that he too had no education in Koine Greek ("discovered" 1898). There has been a LOT of study within the Koine dialect since then (how the various Greek words were commonly understood since we now have many examples of how these words were used) and one would do well to place Thayer’s lexicon in the circular file. (And should I mention he was a Unitarian and student at Harvard School of Divinity?)
I can’t point you to ONE manuscript that uses “torment” in the manner commonly interpreted by English readers of the KJV. The concept of “trial by fire” is utterly lost on this culture. (Then again so is dunking for witches.)
The lake of fire is a symbol for obliteration.
The phrase “to the ages of the ages” is a figure of speech for “continually.”
Let us not beatify Dante, nor canonize his “Inferno.”
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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dabmci,
I would gently suggest that you read a lot more of my posts before concluding that you understand what I mean. In that I am strongly convinced you and I are having some difficulties with differences in dialect, I shall refrain from hammering on your posts word for word.
| dabmci wrote: | | Do you believe sprits (sic) can die? I don't believe that. |
This is known as a foundational presupposition. You seem to pre-suppose (from your misconception of God’s love) that “spirits” (whatever you mean by that) are immortal. This idea colours your interpretation of scripture and leads to misunderstanding. One should be basanidzo (testing) hemras kai nuktos (day and night) eis tous aionas ton aionon (into eternity, i.e. continually) to determine whether our understanding comes from the illumination of the Holy Ghost (even as we read the Bible) or whether we bring our own ideas to the texts first.
| dabmci wrote: | | God's love for his creation does not allow him to just snuff out his creation. |
So you think it is more loving to eternally torture sentient creatures than to let them, dying, die to nothingness? To be remembered no more?
It clearly states “Death is no more.” It dosen't’t exist – it’s gone. Poof. The text also clearly states that hell shares the same fate as death. Both are cast “into the lake of fire,” which you will find is a figure of speech for obliteration. Death goes POOF. Hell goes POOF.
POOF!
(Edit: text in red added to clarify)
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago.
Last edited by Yehushuan on Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | One should be basanidzo (testing) hemras kai nuktos (day and night) eis tous aionas ton aionon (into eternity, i.e. continually) whether our understanding comes from the illumination of the Holy Ghost (even as we read the Bible) or whether we bring our own ideas to the texts first. |
This is very exciting. I feel like I'm getting a clearer understanding of the nature of God's judgment. And I've got a few questions.
Where else in the new testament is basanidzo used?
Did Paul write to the Thessalonians to basanidzo all things, hold fast that which is good in 1 Thess 5:21?
Did John tell his readers to basanidzo the spirits to see whether they are of God in 1 John 4:1?
Understanding where else in the new testament the word is used and how it's used could shed further light on what John really meant in the Revelation, which the translators just rendered as "torment". The idea of an interrogation harmonizes so well with everything else we read in the Bible about the judgement of God. Its intent is to try, to bring to light, to see if something or someone holds up to the truth.
For example, Jesus told the religious leaders in John 5:45
| Quote: | | Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. |
Their judgement would be that the very law by which they believed they would be found righteous would examine and try them, and condemn them as sinners.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Glad to see I am still able to surprise.
But it really becomes disheartening to run into so many misguided souls who think the book of Revelation is some kind of scientific text book meant to describe a literal physics (as if Hobbits actually do have large hairy feet) and a literal “future” history (the epitome of an oxymoron).
The reason nobody cares about truth is that deep down inside they know they can’t handle the truth, and it’s easier to stay comfortable in one’s own little world of mythos (e.g. sports).
The KJV was one of the worst disasters to ever wash over the Gospel, creating a culture of Evangelical-ism that would be quite foreign to Jesus. (As if God was more interested in writing a book than in saving souls.)
Now don’t get me wrong. I believe demons are literal because I’ve met some face to face. It’s just that the feeble fable of Revelation is so steeped in mythical symbol that it’s nearly as useless as the book of Enoch for understanding reality.
One should rightly think that a lamb with seven eyes is a genetic freak.
And if you think these people have trouble explaining the Trinity, I bet hardly any of them ever realized they are supposed to believe (at least according to Revelation) that God has SEVEN spirits, not ONE.
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Hi Yehushuan
You said.......
| Quote: | “The KJV was one of the worst disasters to ever wash over the Gospel, creating a culture of Evangelical-ism that would be quite foreign to Jesus. (As if God was more interested in writing a book than in saving souls.)”
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How do you expect to save any soles, without “the Book”? (You can’t!)
How could we know what the true Gospel is, without “the Book”? (We can’t!)
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Where else in the new testament is basanidzo used? |
Luk 8:27-29 KJV And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs. When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, BASANIDZO me not (torment me not). For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.
What lie of the devil did Jesus basanidzo (challenge)?
What was tested against the touchstone of the Logos to be proven genuine?
The Pattern of creation is broken.
One need merely look upon another who is handicapped to see this brokenness (that a genetically impaired individual is not supposed to be that way).
Critters take advantage of the broken pattern in Man, and while they possess people, they have no divine right to do so. It’s just so much more comfortable inside people. (Mat 12:43 KJV When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.)
One was Basanidzo’d or tortured under interrogation to “prove” whether what he said was true or not. The critter did not want Jesus to "get to the truth."
The wind and waves of the hurricane Basanidzo-s the ship to prove whether it’s construction is sea-worthy.
The lie of the critter (that it had a right to possess) did not withstand the basanidzo of Jesus.
At least we still have the concept of “testing one’s mettle.”
There are many who are offended at me because my words torment (basanidzo) them.
Their spiritual truths shall go up in smoke.
The critter will lose his comfortable habitation when the Man sees the deliverance of God, and we no longer trust the lies of devil. The torment of the legion was to challenge their right to inhabit, and such shall be mistrusted continually.
Yehu
PS: Sorry, 1 Thes. 5:21 and 1 John 4:1 use dokimadzo. It is not as violent or as hostile as basanidzo, dealing more with illogical inconsistencies rather than “judgment by trial” or martyrdom (suffering through the basanidzo/torment, holding fast to the end).
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| bigape wrote: | | How do you expect to save any soles, without “the Book”? (You can’t!) |
Oi Vey.
(I tend to save my soles by using Dr. Scholl's inserts.)
bigape, you do realize there wasn't a New Testament the way you know it until 367AD? Do you really wish to assert that no one could be saved until after then?
What of Cornelius? What "BOOK" saved him?
The Book led Paul to exterminate Christians in Damascus (and rightly so). But I guess if I am to believe you, Paul didn't see a great light and talked with Jesus Himself, but rather tripped over a new book that hadn't even been written? You say "can't." God has other ideas.
| bigape wrote: | | How could we know what the true Gospel is, without “the Book”? (We can’t!) |
What part of "he" are you having trouble with?
Joh 14:26 KJV But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
You must be a very courageous soul to be so confident to change the words to say:
Rom 8:14 KJV For as many as are led by the Book of God, they are the sons of God.
(I think I'll stay a coward, and not rely upon a book.)
Yehushuan
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yehu,
Thanks for the post.
JB |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Yehushuan
You said.......
| Quote: | “bigape, you do realize there wasn't a New Testament the way you know it until 367AD? Do you really wish to assert that no one could be saved until after then?”
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Well Yehushuan, you do realize, that this is 2008AD, and that it is simply a cop-out, to bring up 367AD, when attacking God’s Word.
(It is not relevant to us today!)
--------------------------------------------------
And also, when talking about how we can know about God’s will, you say......
| Quote: | “Joh 14:26 KJV But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
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Sure enough the Holy Spirit does teach us, “as we study God’s Word”!
But I repeat my question.....
How could we know what the true Gospel is, without “the Book”? (We can’t!)
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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JB |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| bigape wrote: | | (It is not relevant to us today!) |
The history of the development of the Catholic Doctrine of Canon is not relevant?
The origins of the book you claim as God inspired Divine Writ are irrelevant? Ya sound like a friggin Muslim.
You people amaze me, all running around trying to claim that your little churches operate like the Early New Testament Church, basing this wildass pompous claim on a book that the Early New Testament Church never even HAD.
The only other one around here that has any clue about how that church lived is Golfjack (ok, maybe Zathrus). At least Golfjack’s in the same ballpark as the Early Church, even if he has been swayed by the apostasy of book worship.
You, on the other hand, don’t even know what God’s Word is. (Maybe JB can help you out there.) You don’t even know what the true Gospel is even having the Book. Do you really think Jesus died to pay God to forgive your sins? Have you never asked yourself how one can forgive a debt that’s been paid?
You know? Maybe I will ask the Father that you fall into the hands of the living God. When He shows up and says, “Hello,” as he did with me, do you think you will still try to treat the Holy Ghost like some kind of “Cliff’s Notes for the Bible”?
Were God to be in the lightning bolt throwing business, I wouldn’t want to be a hundred miles around you, dude.
If the Truth of 367 AD is irrelevant, how much more so the Truth of 30 AD?
Darth Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Yehushuan
Well, I am learning a lot about you tonight:
In just one response you have said........
| Quote: | “....the book you claim as God inspired Divine Writ....”
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and
| Quote: | “Do you really think Jesus died to pay God to forgive your sins? Have you never asked yourself how one can forgive a debt that’s been paid?”
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--------------------------------------------------
Now to be fair, you may have been saying some of these things sarcastically, and so you might not really mean them:
But maybe, you don’t believe, that God’s has preserved His Word for us, and so we are stuck having to wait for “the Father to fall into our lap”.
--------------------------------------------------
Back on topic:
The Bible is very clear, when it teaches us about an eternal lake of fire, where all of the unsaved will suffer, for ever and ever.
And there is nothing you can do about it.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| bigape wrote: | Hi Yehushuan
You said.......
| Quote: | “bigape, you do realize there wasn't a New Testament the way you know it until 367AD? Do you really wish to assert that no one could be saved until after then?”
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Well Yehushuan, you do realize, that this is 2008AD, and that it is simply a cop-out, to bring up 367AD, when attacking God’s Word.
(It is not relevant to us today!) |
bigape,
I've gotta point out here, as Yehu has too, that your logic here has a flaw. The point is totally relevant.
Do you see that Yehu is pointing out that the apostles and the early church did not have the new testament? Matthew through Revelation were missing from their Bibles! So what did they base their faith on?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | PS: Sorry, 1 Thes. 5:21 and 1 John 4:1 use dokimadzo. It is not as violent or as hostile as basanidzo, dealing more with illogical inconsistencies rather than “judgment by trial” or martyrdom (suffering through the basanidzo/torment, holding fast to the end). |
Thanks, Yehu.
Would Job's interrogation and rebuke by God at the end of the book be hostile enough to qualify as basanidzo? Or is basanidzo more of a test of one's mettle by affliction and adverse circumstances? Just something I've been meditating on with respect to the book of Job. Probably a good topic for another thread.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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