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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Cosmology |
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It may be beneficial to realize that many of us are not discussing Religion in as much as we are discussing Cosmology. Our involvement in Biblical Christianity (whatever that might mean) is an attempt to order and understand our existence within the world around us.
Take a piece of fruit and place it on the table for a few weeks. (I mean actually do this, don’t just think about it.) Observe the changes as the fruit withers and molds. Why does it do this? As a modern educated American you’ll most likely scoff at the question today, but germ theory didn’t exist 150 years ago, and how can you dispute with a tribal jungle dweller in the third world that unseen demon spirits don’t eat the fruit’s life force? And how would you dispute this with the modern Buddhist? (Or maybe you’ve ignored the small shrines to Buddha with decaying fruit located in the corner of your favorite Chinese takeout restaurant?)
Prince Siddhartha, abruptly confronted with sickness, pain, disease, and death was so tormented by these realities that he invented core Buddhism, ultimately denying the existence of personal conscious awareness. (You don’t really exist; you’re just an illusion to yourself.)
Mary Baker Eddy, founder of “Christian Science” (not to be confused with “Scientology”) arrived at the diametrically opposite conclusion – that the world itself is an illusion created by you (at least in part), and hence sickness, pain, and death are not real, but merely errors in your own thinking. In essence, a result of “sick” faith (expectation).
In the meanwhile, Traditional Christianity leans on a literal interpretation of Genesis to explain the existence of sickness, pain, and death in the face of a Good, Loving, and Perfect God – that the creation around you wasn’t the way God intended it.
Gnostic Christianity places these realities at the feet of the inept god Yahweh, who is not the Father of Jesus, and is so stupid he thinks he’s the only God. Jesus was sent by his Father, the True Ineffable Infinite to teach you how to become free of being trapped in this cluster kludge of a material universe.
Even if the common man has never heard of the world “Cosmology” or has never talked with others about Religion, the decisions he makes when interacting with the world around him comprises his cosmology. Everyone is trying to make sense of the world. (And everyone thinks what they’re doing is right.) This is why The Matrix is so mesmerizing. It is a modern day cosmology that awakens the inner doubt of an individual that life might not be quite the way he thinks it is, while incorporating technology that literally did not exist in the world of the ancients (i.e. pre 1950).
So as you read posts on this forum, try to think of them as statements of Cosmology rather than expressions of Religious belief. In trying to make sense of the world around him, Eleven has embraced the theology of Groundhog Day (that we must strive over and over to learn spiritual things or grow in a “correct” spiritual direction before we can be “saved”). Silver Surfer has fled the inordinate complexity of the world around him by redacting the salvation of Christianity to the absurd simplicity of attending church on Saturday. While Admin has arrived at the conclusion that Sin does not exist, but is merely a phenomena of social expression – a linguistic invention to describe the inadequacies of neural function. (It’s not “sin” but merely stupidity.)
Not that I am any different. I work out my Cosmology with fear and trembling just like the rest of you. (What do I do when the gun is pointing at my head - and I mean literally.) It’s just that the experience I have had in the cosmos surrounding me has included encounters with real live demons – in the same manner as my real live experience with the color blue, the taste of a really good beer, and getting wet from rain. I preach Christ (whatever that might mean) because I have found no other comprehensive Cosmology that is as convincing.
Yehu
PS: The above examples were not meant as individual attacks, but as expressions of how I understand their views. I most certainly allow for the fact I might be wrong in my understanding.
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Cosmology |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | , Eleven has embraced the theology of Groundhog Day (that we must strive over and over to learn spiritual things or grow in a “correct” spiritual direction before we can be “saved”). |
I never said any such thing. What I said was, it is my understanding that we live each day over and over again until we get right.
But before I could even explain what I meant by that, you were literally rolling over in laughter, asking me:
| Quote: |
Am I to take this seriously?
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So forgive me, but I don't take your conclusions too seriously either.
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Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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eleven,
My post wasn’t meant to ridicule you, so don’t take it that way. As a matter of fact I’ve been giving your “Groundhog Day” quite a bit of thought. But face it. Are you seriously suggesting that tomorrow and the day after and even the day after that will actually have an August 4th date? Just like the movie? If not, then you weren’t serious, and my reply “you can’t be serious” is valid, in that you weren’t.
But if you are serious, just how so? I’ve run into a number of people who assert (as I said) “that we must strive over and over to learn spiritual things or grow in a “correct” spiritual direction before we can be “saved” and given your limited explanation of your position, my conclusion is NOT unwarranted.
Pax
Yehu
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | eleven,
My post wasn’t meant to ridicule you, so don’t take it that way. As a matter of fact I’ve been giving your “Groundhog Day” quite a bit of thought. But face it. Are you seriously suggesting that tomorrow and the day after and even the day after that will actually have an August 4th date? Just like the movie? If not, then you weren’t serious, and my reply “you can’t be serious” is valid, in that you weren’t. |
August 4th? No. What is time to God? What is time to us but an illusion - a learning tool. What I meant by Groundhog Day is that day after day after day, we are given opportunities to answer a spiritual call. Think back to the movie. Bill Murray would change things in order to have different outcomes. When he finally learned to give, Groundhog Day was no more.
Every day, spiritual opportunies cross our path. Do we answer them, or do we ignore them? Do I put myself out to help somebody, or do I turn my head and pretend I didn't see them? It is my contention that the more opportunities you take, the closer you get to God- the more you start to think like He does. And once this becomes natural to you, Groundhog Day is over.
Understand though, that this has nothing to do with salvation. I was saved the moment I asked God to save me. Salvation is the beginning, not the end.
Once saved, a whole new world is open to you to go even further into the Kingdom of God.
| Yehu wrote: |
...and given your limited explanation of your position, my conclusion is NOT unwarranted.
Pax
Yehu |
Then how about asking before laughing at someone and writing them off? That would be cool! 
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Pain is inevitable;
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | What is time to us but an illusion - a learning tool. |
Time governs death. Death is not an illusion, and one might be justified to consider it rather cruel to tell the widow her grief isn’t real.
I read these statements you make, “creation is insane” and “time is an illusion” and wonder how you can assert you’re Not a Gnostic Christian, as these beliefs are core to their theology.
| eleven wrote: | | the more opportunities you take, the closer you get to God |
Now *I* would contend that this “judgment” of “closeness” to God is an illusion. How can what is within you be far away? (If it indeed be within you.)
Luk 17:21 KJV Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Our spiritual growth is not dependent upon us.
Heb 12:2 KJV Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Or now, having been saved, you think we ourselves are to be the finisher of our faith?
Rom 9:21 KJV Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
And if God is the potter, what? He needs day after day to try, try again?
| eleven wrote: | | I was saved the moment I asked God to save me. |
And the Arminians have landed!
According to the New Testament texts, not only is our spiritual growth Not dependent upon us, neither is our salvation. You were saved the moment God decided to save you, and you had nothing to do it. (Or have you now become both the author and finisher of your faith?)
Can you see how one may become confused here?
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Nice thread.
I would only say, at the moment,
I believe you are correct, and incorrect here:
| Quote: | | According to the New Testament texts, not only is our spiritual growth Not dependent upon us, neither is our salvation. You were saved the moment God decided to save you, and you had nothing to do it. (Or have you now become both the author and finisher of your faith?) |
Salvation is not up to us. We are saved. Period.
Our spiritual growth, on the other hand, IS up to us.
While God may choose the lessons, and the time, we choose how we deal with them, and how fast we learn, and hence have some influence in the timing of the next lesson, and how far we get before we are called home.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: |
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This ought to be good.
   
JB alias "the village idiot" |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: | | Our spiritual growth, on the other hand, IS up to us. |
I appreciate the sentiment, but at least I did quote “scripture.” What portion of the New Testament would support your assertion that you are the finisher of your faith?
| ShardikSon wrote: | | we choose how we deal with them |
When does a slave have a choice?
Rom 6:18 KJV+ Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 KJV+ But now being made free from sin, and become slaves to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
This whole “I’ve got to strive to be holy” thing is so bizarre to me. Either we are made free from sin, or we’re not.
Mat 12:33 KJV Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Does the tree make itself good? Or is that the responsibility of the gardener?
A good tree just grows good fruit. When does the tree sit there getting all scrunched up, worried and straining to pop out a good fruit like someone having constipation?
Choice is in the soul, not the spirit, and it is our spirit that is to be transformed (by Him).
Yehu
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: | | Our spiritual growth, on the other hand, IS up to us. |
I appreciate the sentiment, but at least I did quote “scripture.” What portion of the New Testament would support your assertion that you are the finisher of your faith? |
I claim not to be "The Finisher of my Faith" but the follower of my Faith.
| Quote: |
Romans 6:
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? |
Looks to me like they still have a choice, here.
| Quote: | 1 Corinthians 3:
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For no man can lay another foundation than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,
13every man's work shall be made manifest; for the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall test every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as fire. |
| Yehushuan wrote: |
| ShardikSon wrote: | | we choose how we deal with them |
When does a slave have a choice? |
A slave always has a choice to serve willingly, or to rebel.
| Yehushuan wrote: |
Rom 6:18 KJV+ Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 KJV+ But now being made free from sin, and become slaves to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
This whole “I’ve got to strive to be holy” thing is so bizarre to me. Either we are made free from sin, or we’re not.
Mat 12:33 KJV Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Does the tree make itself good? Or is that the responsibility of the gardener?
A good tree just grows good fruit. When does the tree sit there getting all scrunched up, worried and straining to pop out a good fruit like someone having constipation?
Choice is in the soul, not the spirit, and it is our spirit that is to be transformed (by Him).
Yehu |
Romans 12-14 would indicate that Paul acknowledges we have now still much to choose in our walk.
Every day you can choose to please the flesh, or to please God.
Salvation does not come with a lobotomy.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Rom 6:18 KJV+ Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness. |
| Quote: | | Rom 6:22 KJV+ But now being made free from sin, and become slaves to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. |
You have changed the word "servants" to "slaves". Why?
| Quote: | | Mat 12:33 KJV Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. |
You quoted this verse and then you asked...
| Quote: | | Does the tree make itself good? Or is that the responsibility of the gardener? |
The answer acdcording to the command of Jesus in this verse is, Yes! It is the tree's responsibility! Jesus said to the man this tree represents..."...make the tree good...or...make the tree corrupt..."
And, it's obvious that the gardener isn't responsible for the tree's nature but is responsible for the fruitfulness of it.
Now verse 34 following this one in the chapter you quoted from informs us that evil men can't make the tree good!
So, whatz up?
The answer is that the tree must be put to death and be re-born as a new tree that will please the gardener who is Jesus.
The reason we Christians aren't slaves is because we don't live under the law. Only slaves live under law. And, furthermore, slaves aren't free born sons of God as the Christian is. And, furthermore, because we Christians are sons and not slaves we only appear as servants for a short time.
Remember that a slaves ear must be nailed to the door of the slave's owner if he ever wants to be a willing servant of his master for life.
I await the defense of your slave theology.
Please, quote uncorrupted scriptures to make you case.
And, please mind the context.
Joman. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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This is better than the movies
 
JB |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| joman wrote: | | You have changed the word "servants" to "slaves". Why? |
Because King James needs all the help it can get. (Please notice the plus sign, or lack thereof.)
Rom 6:20 KJV For when ye were the servants (δουλος) of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
δουλος – doulos:
Strong’s G1401 From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):
Liddell, Scott Lexicon: A. born bondbondman or slave.
(Does this satisfy? Or do I need to waste time discussing the political troubles in the early 1600's that led to the very poor choice of the word "servant"?)
| joman wrote: | | Please, quote uncorrupted scriptures to make you (sic) case. |
Then one could hardly ever quote the KJV.
| joman wrote: | | The answer acdcording (sic) to the command of Jesus in this verse is, Yes! It is the tree's responsibility!..... |
Your exegesis is a bit convoluted here in that you seem to think Jesus actually expects the tree to transform itself, yet you yourself recognize he says the evil tree cannot make itself to bear good fruit. Jesus’ teaching here is, in essence, a Christian Koan, and it is not wise to take Jesus’ words at face value. When Jesus uses this analogy in other places, he is clearly drawing a difference between the good tree and the corrupt tree, and the last verse (Luke 6:46) seems to clearly state that Jesus does expect people to save themselves by their works.
Mat 7:16-20 KJV Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? (17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. (18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Luk 6:43-46 KJV For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (44) For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. (45) A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. (46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? But beware lest ye put words into Jesus mouth. In verse 46 he did not make a statement. Rather, he asked a question, and has actually answered this elsewhere. So let us ask, then, why do you call him Lord, Lord and do not the things which he says? Because a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, and there are no good trees.
Mat 19:17 KJV And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
There is none good. The good might bring forth good fruit, were there good trees, but there is none good. There are no good trees. There might be good trees were those corrupt ones able to make themselves good. But there is none good. Which is why there is none that can keep the commandments in order to enter into life. All fall short. They may call him Lord, Lord, but do not the things which he says, because they cannot. There is none good, nor can they make themselves good in order to do the things he says. Rather, they must be made good, and we know from the ministry of Paul how this is done.
Rom 8:1-2 KJV There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Gal 5:22 KJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 4:6 KJV And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. We know we are sons, because fruit is in the spirit of a man, and God has made us good when sending forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts.
| joman wrote: | | Only slaves live under law. |
You mean “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:2)? Indeed that would make us slaves by your definitional framework, wouldn’t it?
Rom 1:1 KJV+ Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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(I'm not ignoring you, ShardikSon, I just ran out of time.)
Yehu
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