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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Nightmare said:
| Quote: | | 2.) The weight of the punishment does not equal the weight of the crime. |
I'd like to start with and explore this one point with you.
In your intro-post, you said you would give examples and provide scriptural backing/support.
Let's start a conversation with whatever you furnish to back your assertion that the weight of the punishment does not equal the weight of the crime.
Luv
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Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| nightmare wrote: | | eleven wrote: |
Personally, I don't believe you think God is unjust because of any scripture verses. Sounds to me like this may be more of a personal issue.
Tell me........what's really on your mind? |
Eleven, do you think slavery is just? |
Be more specific. Are you talking about scripture or personal experience?
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Nightmare wrote: | | Nightmare wrote: | "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' [/i]1 Samuel 15:2-3
Please tell me what sin an infant can commit. What does an infant sow that reaps a consequence of death?. Regardless, there is a difference between discipline and punishment.
"Be silent before the Lord God! For the Day of the Lord is at hand; the Lord has prepared a sacrifice, he has consecrated his guests. And on the day of the Lord's sacrifice I will punish the officials and the king's sons and all who dress themselves in foreign attire. On that day I will punish all who leap over the threshold, who fill their master's house with violence and fraud. On thast day, says the Lord, a cry will be heard from the Fish Gate, a wail from the Second Quarter, a loud crash from he hills. The inhabitants of the Mortar wail, for all the traders have perished; all who eight out silver are cut off. At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps, and I will punish the people who rest complacently on their dergs, those who say in their hearts, The Lord will not do good, nor will he do harm. Their wealth shall be plundered, and their houses laid waste. Though they build houses, they shall not inhabitant them; though they plant vineyards, they shall not drink wine from them." Zephaniah 1:7-13
"You shall not bow down to them or worhsip them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:5-6
Once again, what did the children sow to reap the punishment of their parents? This is not discipline, because there is nothing to correct in regards to the children to begin with.
| ChristianWoman1 wrote: | | I'm sure this is how my own children feel sometimes but as the parent I know better for them. God is our Father...only HE knows best. |
I understand this. Now let me ask you this. Consider how much you love your children. Now take into consideration that the biblical god should be capable of love far greater than what you have for your children. Would you stone your children for talking back to you? Furthermore, how can execution be the best thing for a child or a person, in terms of correcting their behavior?
| Quote: | | So not true... Again, comparing to my own children...that's like saying I love my first child more than my 4th child, NO WAY!! Each is loved the same and fed what they need to be fed . Each child is unique....they don't need the same things [ lessons] from me....so is the same with us as we are God's children. |
No, this is true. God may love everyone equally, but all people are not equal in his eyes. If this were true, how can you explain where he condones slavery or where he gives the virgins of the towns and cities the Israelites conquer to the Israelites? I think slavery is very immoral, don't you? How can you claim that god treats everyone equally when he condones slavery? Please explain. |
I trimmed down my second post a bit, and put in bold, italics, and underlined the questions that were left unanswered. I don't think this is a fair debate if I answer all the questions and you guys ignore the ones I ask. Now to continue answering your questions.
| james wrote: | | I have two questions the first is do you believe that we as having finite minds can understand Gods "infinite mind" thus understand His reasoning for allowing or disallowing certain things? |
I believe that to have a finite mind may mean that we can't understand all of God's reasoning for allowing or disallowing certain things, but that certainly does not mean that we can't understand some of these things. For example, I believe that murdering infants and children is wrong. I also believe that slavery is wrong. Are you honestly going to defend slavery and murdering infants and children by telling me that we simply 'can't understand the way God works'? I don't need a god to determine that these things are immoral.
As for your second question, no I don't believe in the existence of God. Simply because I use the word "God" as a name in a sentence doesn't mean I believe in it. If it would make you feel better, I could write "I believe that the god-that-I-don't-believe-in-as-depicted-by-your-religion is unjust" everytime I used his name, but that would just make things tedious.
| eleven wrote: | Personally, I don't believe you think God is unjust because of any scripture verses. Sounds to me like this may be more of a personal issue.
Tell me........what's really on your mind? |
Eleven, do you think slavery is just?
| ShardikSon wrote: | | But then, to answer your original question, No, God is not "unjust". If He did see fit to punish folks, they probably have it coming. |
What about infants and children. Do they have it coming too? Tell me, ShardikSon, what does an infant do that can deserve an execution?[/i] |
If you simply look at the physical plane of existence,then there is no justice in the world. This discussion then becomes irrelevant.
Any justice you will find comes from God.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: |
Disclaimer: All statements in my posts are presented as purely my opinion, and are not intended to impart wisdom or knowledge.
Any wisdom found in this post is the work of God, to whom all credit and glory belongs.
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So if something you post is really, really stupid, who get's credit for that? 
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: |
Disclaimer: All statements in my posts are presented as purely my opinion, and are not intended to impart wisdom or knowledge.
Any wisdom found in this post is the work of God, to whom all credit and glory belongs.
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So if something you post is really, really stupid, who get's credit for that? |
My 7th grade Latin Teacher.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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Nightmare
Tadpole
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | nightmare,
So you are just stateing that if there is a God, He is unjust. |
Correct. Though sometimes, I find it is easier in a debate to go with the assumption that God exists. For one, it is annoying for me to have to specifically point out everytime that I am referring to God in a hypothetical manner. Secondly, I find it is easier to have a debate with people when you aren't shoving in their faces that you think their god is a phony.
| luvnlife wrote: | I'd like to start with and explore this one point with you.
In your intro-post, you said you would give examples and provide scriptural backing/support.
Let's start a conversation with whatever you furnish to back your assertion that the weight of the punishment does not equal the weight of the crime.
Luv |
That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Let us use this verse for debate, then:
"Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death." Exodus 21:17
Please explain to me how execution can be morally justifed when given to someone who curses their parents. Obviously, the results of executing a person is significantly greater than the results of a person cursing their parents. On this basis, I assert that the weight of the punishment does not equal the weight of the crime. Would you care to show otherwise?
| Quote: | | Be more specific. Are you talking about scripture or personal experience? |
Anything. Personal experience or scripture. Do you not feel that all humans are equal? Is there ever a time when owning another human is morally justified?
| ShardikSon wrote: | If you simply look at the physical plane of existence,then there is no justice in the world. This discussion then becomes irrelevant.
Any justice you will find comes from God. |
I think the justice our world provides today is a lot better than the justice that God has provided. I know that at least in the United States, we do not allow slavery and we do not execute people based on their religion beliefs or their sexual preferences. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Interesting thread, although the claims in the OP have gone unsupported as of yet...
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Nightmare
Tadpole
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Please explain that the claims in the Old Testament have gone unsupported. Should I post verses about the slavery in which God has condoned? Is that what you mean? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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I see instruction for how one should treat bond servants, not an endorsement of an existing cultural system, or an installation of that system.
How do you define 'condone' exactly?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Nightmare
Tadpole
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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I believe in this definition the most:
condone
verb
excuse, overlook, or make allowances for; be lenient with; "excuse someone's behavior"; "She condoned her husband's occasional infidelities" [syn: excuse]
Servents are mentioned in the bible, but so are slaves. The bible specifically mentions slavery multiple times throughout the Old Testiment, sometimes even going into detail in how to care for a slave.
However, I think an argument could be made that God also endorsed slavery. When the Israelites went to war with another country, God told them that they were to first make an 'offering of peace'. If this offer was rejected, then the enemies were to be completely annihilated. What many Christians either do not realize or do not tell other people is that this 'offering of peace' was slavery. So in other words, God told his Israelites that they were to enslave the enemy or annihilate them. Wouldn't you agree that this is endorsing slavery? |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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May I point out that you are trying to attach 21st century values to Bronze age civilization?
_________________
-----------
"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Shardik. I was thinking this very same thing on the way to work this morning.
It appears as though nightmare is passing judgments based on an extremely narrow, and historically contemporary, cultural point of view.
| Quote: | | The bible specifically mentions slavery multiple times throughout the Old Testiment, sometimes even going into detail in how to care for a slave. |
Certainly scriptures provide direction on how to care for bond servants and slaves. This does not endorse or condone anything, but simply provides direction on how to properly conduct oneself in the accepted practices of the culture of the time.
Ultimately though, I think on this particular topic the objection being raised is based more so on a repetition of something someone heard than on an educated opinion.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Nightmare
Tadpole
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: | | May I point out that you are trying to attach 21st century values to Bronze age civilization? |
Are you actually going to claim that slavery was moral then, simply becaues it happened in the Bronze age? Then do you think that the slavery in America was moral as well? After all, it was in a different time period. Since slavery was moral back then, does that mean in the right time period, rape, murder, and thievery are morally justified as well?
| RevJP wrote: | | Certainly scriptures provide direction on how to care for bond servants and slaves. This does not endorse or condone anything, but simply provides direction on how to properly conduct oneself in the accepted practices of the culture of the time. |
Yes, some of the scriptures provide directions on how to care for bond servants and slaves. I never said that such scriptures actually endorse anything. Please reread what I wrote about where I think God endorsed slavery. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Nightmare wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: | | May I point out that you are trying to attach 21st century values to Bronze age civilization? |
Are you actually going to claim that slavery was moral then, simply becaues it happened in the Bronze age? Then do you think that the slavery in America was moral as well? After all, it was in a different time period. Since slavery was moral back then, does that mean in the right time period, rape, murder, and thievery are morally justified as well? |
Up until the later17th century, slavery and servitude were quite acceptable in human society. Even then, the idea that it was time to re-think the notion did not really set in, and when it did, it was followers of God who began to take issue with it.
Frankly, I don't spend a lot of time attempting to justify the behavior of our ancestors. That was then, and life was different. I have enough to worry about in minding my own behavior.
| Nightmare wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | Certainly scriptures provide direction on how to care for bond servants and slaves. This does not endorse or condone anything, but simply provides direction on how to properly conduct oneself in the accepted practices of the culture of the time. |
Yes, some of the scriptures provide directions on how to care for bond servants and slaves. I never said that such scriptures actually endorse anything. Please reread what I wrote about where I think God endorsed slavery. |
By your own statements, you do not even believe God is, so how interesting that you concern yourself with what He may, or may not have endorsed.
Having said that. God has generally worked to help people figure out how to get along within the world that they live in. Frankly, if you are so concerned with slavery, you should spend your time working to end it, now, rather than worry about how it was several thousand years ago.
_________________
-----------
"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Slavery is not always an evil.
What has happened is that the devil has produced a politically correct morality to replace biblical morality with.
In politically correct thinking; slavery is always evil.
But, is it true that slavery is always evil?
Noah cursed his son Ham, over whom he had authority and legal cause. The scriptures say that a curse without cause shall not come. But, this means that a curse with legal cause can indeed come upon a person.
And so, the curse of the law weighs heavily on all the children of Adam. Which curse is death.
Is death fair? Is death not slavery.
Are not all men slaves of the law of sin and death.
Isn't the debtor a slave of the lender?
How can the law exist without slavery being a necessary punishment justified by the law breakers that deserve it.
America is a debtor nation.
This means that although we may for a time seem exempt of the law of slavery to the lender. But, the scriptures tell us that we should expect slavery to come upon all Americans as a nation because the truth is the truth and therefore, we shall not escape.
You may ponder why a person must become a slave under the law. It's because the law must be just.
An eye for an eye is fair.
A tooth for a tooth is fair.
A supplying all my labor to pay for my lawful debt is just.
I know this seems offensive to many.
But, I think that it is basically because many people are only thinking about the abuse of slavery as applied to the Africans who were brought to America without their consent.
We shouldn't confuse the slavery of the Africans with the slavery of them who have brought it upon themselves.
Now, God doesn't want anyone to be a slave. But, to set the captives free, someone must fulfill the requirements of the law so as to fulfill the rightiousness required of it and then set the captives free. This is what Jesus has done.
No matter who you are, bond slave or free man, you can be set free of all slavery by trusting to Jesus.
But, please be aware that if you are indeed a slave don't rebel to obtain freedom. If you do then a worse slavery will come upon you. Jesus is the way out but, once free no man can trul bind you as a slave. And Jesus wants the Christian who is a slave under the law to be a witness of the true freedom that Christ brings. Jesus brings a peace that doesn't depend on the tranquility of the enviroment. He brings a freedom no physical slavery can negate.
Joman. |
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