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Nightmare
Tadpole
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 22
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 Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: Did Jesus Exist? |
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| Straight and simple, I don't believe that there exists a historical Jesus. Perhaps I should say, I don't believe there are any first hand eyewitness accounts of Jesus. Anyone care to prove otherwise? |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6287
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Good luck with this
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| nightmare wrote: | | Perhaps I should say, I don't believe there are any first hand eyewitness accounts of Jesus. |
Why is it that you believe this? What reasons do you have for the historical Jesus not existing?
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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Nightmare
Tadpole
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| My reason is that I have not seen any convincing eyewitness evidence. Do you have any to share? |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: |
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John was an eye witness.
So were Matthew, Luke, and Mark.
Their stories have been copied and passed on for generations.
Sorry, but I suspect that is all the eye-witness accounts you get.
Nobody I know was around at the time.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Well technically, Luke was not an eyewitness to Jesus, but rather to Paul. And one should at least be honest and admit that the names attached to the New Testament gospels were by fiat rather than by fact. There is no evidence that the disciple Matthew wrote the book of Matthew.
| ShardikSon wrote: | | Their stories have been copied and passed on for generations. |
Not to mention edited and modified by the various scribes who passed them on, for various theological reasons.
If your faith is rooted in the Bible, rather than in the God who is the God of the living, then your faith will die when you finally discover the truths regarding the history of the New Testament manuscripts. I would suggest you read the book “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman. Here is evidence that various priests changed various portions of the New Testament texts for various theological reasons.
Oddly enough, the existence of these texts to begin with is evidence of an historical Jesus, just like there was an historical Odysseus, even though his travels in Homer’s Odyssey were more so fiction than fact.
Lack of evidence is not in and of itself evidence, though. There were many historians who had not seen any convincing eyewitness evidence of the existence of the city of Troy, and so arrived at the faulty conclusion that such a city did not exist.
Nightmare makes this kind of mistake.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Did Jesus Exist? |
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| Nightmare wrote: | | Straight and simple, I don't believe that there exists a historical Jesus. Perhaps I should say, I don't believe there are any first hand eyewitness accounts of Jesus. Anyone care to prove otherwise? |
Hi Nightmare. Nice to meet you!
Great thread. Lots of good stuff to thresh out in this one. Let us both accept that it is impossible to prove that Jesus existed. By that I mean that someone who believes he didn't exist cannot be caught in a logical inconsistency. I accept that none of the scriptures is an eyewitness account. Is that your main point?
However, there is a difference between
(1) not believing that Jesus existed and
(2) believing that Jesus did not exist.
Which of these two represents your situation?
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | Well technically, Luke was not an eyewitness to Jesus, but rather to Paul. And one should at least be honest and admit that the names attached to the New Testament gospels were by fiat rather than by fact. There is no evidence that the disciple Matthew wrote the book of Matthew.
| ShardikSon wrote: | | Their stories have been copied and passed on for generations. |
Not to mention edited and modified by the various scribes who passed them on, for various theological reasons.
If your faith is rooted in the Bible, rather than in the God who is the God of the living, then your faith will die when you finally discover the truths regarding the history of the New Testament manuscripts. I would suggest you read the book “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman. Here is evidence that various priests changed various portions of the New Testament texts for various theological reasons.
Oddly enough, the existence of these texts to begin with is evidence of an historical Jesus, just like there was an historical Odysseus, even though his travels in Homer’s Odyssey were more so fiction than fact.
Lack of evidence is not in and of itself evidence, though. There were many historians who had not seen any convincing eyewitness evidence of the existence of the city of Troy, and so arrived at the faulty conclusion that such a city did not exist.
Nightmare makes this kind of mistake.
Yehu |
If my faith was rooted in the Bible, it would, indeed, have failed me long ago.
With no intention of playing the name game, the records in the four gospels are still as close to an eye-witness account as we are ever going to see.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Did Jesus Exist? |
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| Plotinus wrote: | | Nightmare wrote: | | Straight and simple, I don't believe that there exists a historical Jesus. Perhaps I should say, I don't believe there are any first hand eyewitness accounts of Jesus. Anyone care to prove otherwise? |
Hi Nightmare. Nice to meet you!
Great thread. Lots of good stuff to thresh out in this one. Let us both accept that it is impossible to prove that Jesus existed. By that I mean that someone who believes he didn't exist cannot be caught in a logical inconsistency. I accept that none of the scriptures is an eyewitness account. Is that your main point?
However, there is a difference between
(1) not believing that Jesus existed and
(2) believing that Jesus did not exist.
Which of these two represents your situation? |
No eyewitness accounts?
What about Peter?
What about James?
What about Paul?
What about Matthew?
What about John?
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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james
Tiger
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 855
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Did Jesus Exist? |
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| Nightmare wrote: | | Straight and simple, I don't believe that there exists a historical Jesus. Perhaps I should say, I don't believe there are any first hand eyewitness accounts of Jesus. Anyone care to prove otherwise? |
I could disbelieve in any historical persons existance and also discount whether there were any first hand eyewitness accounts of any person. What we accept as proof, I believe is based on our beliefs. I believe in Jesus' existance and accept the bible as proof, you are a professed non-believer so nothing brought before you will likely be accepted.
Such as the ruler of Iran and other are believing the Holocost never happen, reguardless of the eyewitness testimony and evidence presented. I on the other hand believe this Holocost took place. Neither opinions are likely to be swayed by any amount of "proof". |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Nightmare,
I am known as the village idiot around here so what I say probably won't mean a whole lot. I am not an eye witness of Him but I am an eye witness of where He has been. I have seen people healed in His name. I have seen alcoholics delivered in His name and I was changed by the Power of His name. I see Him doing this daily in people lives.
Since this happened thirty years ago that makes my Jesus historical to me.
God Bless my friend.
JB |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Did Jesus Exist? |
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| james wrote: | | I could disbelieve in any historical persons existance and also discount whether there were any first hand eyewitness accounts of any person. |
That's a good point. I wonder who else Nightmare questions actually existed?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Nightmare,
I am known as the village idiot around here so what I say probably won't mean a whole lot. I am not an eye witness of Him but I am an eye witness of where He has been. I have seen people healed in His name. I have seen alcoholics delivered in His name and I was changed by the Power of His name. I see Him doing this daily in people lives.
Since this happened thirty years ago that makes my Jesus historical to me.
God Bless my friend. |
Amen!!! See this is what doubters consistantly say - prove it. I can't "prove" Him but I can prove Him in me.
I am NOTHING like I was 10 years ago. The transformation is nothing short of miraculous.
You don't get that kind of new life from Santa, or lucky rabbit's feet or leprachauns. You can only get this from the One that created you.
I know God lives because He interacts with me - in my life- on a daily basis. Things happen - questions are answered, things I'm looking for suddenly show up, opportunities I'm looking for suddenly become available.
Prayers get answered!
Some people chalk this up to "luck" or "coincidence".
Those are mere words. Where do luck or coincidence get their power?
(And by the way,) I thought I was the village idiot.
When did I get bumped??
I think I want to talk to a manager. 
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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