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Did Jesus Exist?

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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590

Location: Aux Arcs

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:58 am Post subject:

JB wrote:

Eleven,

You mean there is more than one village idiot?

At least one in every village.

JB wrote:

Praise God, I am not alone. Very Happy

GTM

WE are not alone. Praise God.
_________________
-----------
"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV)

ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590

Location: Aux Arcs

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:00 am Post subject:

RevJP wrote:

Nightmare has a point.

Using his reasoning I can agree with him. Personally I don't believe Plato, Alexander, Caesar, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and a whole plethora of other historical figures existed either...

Yeah.
History is a figment of our imagination.
_________________
-----------
"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV)

eleven
King of the Jungle

Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459

Location: Texas

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject:

Plotinus wrote:

Ah! I was wondering if my comment would attract a response. Let me clarify my meaning. I do not think there is a strong argument for any eyewitness accounts in the New Testament on purely textual and logical grounds. Remember this is the historical Jesus (pre-resurrection).

Paul did not intersect with the earthly ministry of Jesus. Matthew and John are plausibly written by people other than the disciples of Jesus. Ditto James and Peter. Conservative scholars mostlybelieve that they were written by the people whose names head the book. Liberal scholars are doubtful.

Even so, is it not true that the scriptures are noted as being the most closely written to the time the events took place?
Records of Alexander the Great are said to have been written as late as 900 years after his death.

(And BTW, Alexander died at the age of 33, just as Jesus did.)
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45degreeN
King Kong

Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2658

Location: Salem Oregon

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject:

There is a point at which one is willingly ignorant and the OP seems to have passed that point. _________________ My boss is a Jewish carpenter. Read the www.Christian-Thinktank.com

eleven
King of the Jungle

Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459

Location: Texas

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject:

Now you don't really think we are going to stop right there, do you? What's on your mind 45? _________________ Pain is inevitable; misery is optional.

Nightmare
Tadpole

Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 22

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject:

Sorry to take so long to reply to this thread! I have been busy, and I wanted to make sure that I had the time to adequately respond to each of you.

RevJP wrote:

Quit that. I did not provide any "reasoning", I simply stated that the reason was because I did not feel that there was any convincing evidence that could be provided. I'm not going to go through and point out all the evidence for each of those figures you mentioned, but I will pick out one. I think Julius Caesar would be a good one.

Let's start with the artifacts. For one, we have denarius (Rome coins) with his picture on them. We have a variety of sculptures of him from his time. Julius Caesar himself was considered to be very good with writing. We have prose and memoirs from him, such as his "Commentarii de Bello Gallico" and his "Commentarii de Bello Civili".

We have a huge list of contemporary accounts of Julius Caesar, starting with Marcus Tullius Cicero who gave numerous political speeches about Caesar which had been recorded, and wrote hundreds of letters, some of which involved Julius Caesar. The list of people who wrote about Caesar continues on with Gaius Sallust, a Rome historian, wrote about Caesar in his "Bellum Catalinae". We even have accounts from Caesar's enemies. Also, Virgil wrote about Caesar in his Aeneid.

ShardikSon wrote:

John was an eye witness.
So were Matthew, Luke, and Mark.

Their stories have been copied and passed on for generations.
Sorry, but I suspect that is all the eye-witness accounts you get.

Nobody I know was around at the time.

Yehushuan wrote:

And one should at least be honest and admit that the names attached to the New Testament gospels were by fiat rather than by fact. There is no evidence that the disciple Matthew wrote the book of Matthew.

A few of you have already mentioned the gospels! Now let's take a look at the evidence for Jesus Christ. The bible claims that Jesus raised the dead, healed the sick, cured the blind, and cleansed the lepers. Crowds followed him constantly. In fact, throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, you see the words "many crowds" and "great crowds" multiple times. On two different occasions, Jesus fed five thousand men, not even including the women and children, bread and fish. On another occasion, it was four thousand. The bible claims that he was brought before the council of Rome and tried for blasphemy. The ministry of Jesus is claimed to have been around Galilee through Capernaum, he performed miracles in Nain, and also in Jerusalem. He was in Judea and in Bethany.

So, Jesus performed miracles in front of thousands of people and covered a reasonably large geographical area. Yet somehow, despite the thousands of people who saw him perform miracles in his three year ministry, the closest thing to an eye-witness account that we have are the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We have no coins of him, no statues.

No portraits or paintings of him from his lifetime. In fact, we don't have a single written eye-witness account from within his life. Jesus did not write anything down. Not even the scribes who saw his miracles wrote anything down. I just find it hard to believe that considering how big of an impact he is alleged to have had during his time, we do not have a single eye-witness account of him.

Let's take a look at the closest thing that Christians call "evidence" for his existance; the gospels. For one, the authors of the gospels are anonymous. This is undisputable. It may be "likely", in the eyes of some Christians, that the authors were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but I will explain why it isn't. The oldest Gospel is widely believed to be Mark. Yet even Christian scholars believe that this gospel was not even published until at least three decades after the death of Jesus, around 70 CE. Being generous, the average lifespan of a human back then was thirty years. This would put Mark at over twice the average life span! Matthew, Luke, and John weren't even around until decades later, so it would be impossible for them to be an eye-witness account.

Even if we assume that the gospels were written during the life of Jesus (which they weren't), they still cannot be an eye-witness account. For one, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were certainly not there for the birth of Jesus. Nor were they there when an angel appeared at the tomb of Jesus. Matthew was not there during the transfiguration in Chapter 17 of Matthew, nor was Luke. The gospels were written in third person, yet how is it that these "authors" are eye witnesses if they couldn't possibly have been to some of the events where Jesus was in which they write about?

Not only that, but the "authors" of the gospels even take on an omniscent point of view at times, telling what Jesus intended to do as well as some of the emotions Jesus was feeling. This only adds to point out that the authors could not have been an eye witness. Christian scholars agree that Matthew and Luke were likely drawn from Mark. Between these three gospels there is clearly some plagiarism, with perhaps only adding an extra verse or chapter occasionally. Why not tell something in your own words? Where there isn't plagiarism, the gospels blatantly contradict the events that happened.

Plotinus wrote:

Nightmare wrote:
Straight and simple, I don't believe that there exists a historical Jesus. Perhaps I should say, I don't believe there are any first hand eyewitness accounts of Jesus. Anyone care to prove otherwise?

Hi Nightmare. Nice to meet you!

Great thread. Lots of good stuff to thresh out in this one. Let us both accept that it is impossible to prove that Jesus existed. By that I mean that someone who believes he didn't exist cannot be caught in a logical inconsistency. I accept that none of the scriptures is an eyewitness account. Is that your main point?

However, there is a difference between

(1) not believing that Jesus existed and
(2) believing that Jesus did not exist.

Which of these two represents your situation?

Number two; I believe that Jesus did not exist. Obviously, it is impossible to prove that anyone that has died at one time existed, to a person who is both stubborn and skeptical enough. However, I do not feel that I am being stubborn or close-minded. Considering all the things I mentioned above in my post that Jesus has allegedly done, don't you think it is quite reasonable that we should have at least one piece of written evidence from an eye-witness? Surely if he had made an impact on thousands and thousands of people, at least one or two of those pieces of writing would have remained intact! He wasn't even in the census!

james wrote:

I could disbelieve in any historical persons existance and also discount whether there were any first hand eyewitness accounts of any person. What we accept as proof, I believe is based on our beliefs. I believe in Jesus' existance and accept the bible as proof, you are a professed non-believer so nothing brought before you will likely be accepted.
Such as the ruler of Iran and other are believing the Holocost never happen, reguardless of the eyewitness testimony and evidence presented. I on the other hand believe this Holocost took place. Neither opinions are likely to be swayed by any amount of "proof".

Really? Let's put that to the test. Give me one written account of Jesus Christ from within his lifetime.

JB wrote:

Nightmare,

I am known as the village idiot around here so what I say probably won't mean a whole lot. I am not an eye witness of Him but I am an eye witness of where He has been. I have seen people healed in His name. I have seen alcoholics delivered in His name and I was changed by the Power of His name. I see Him doing this daily in people lives.

Since this happened thirty years ago that makes my Jesus historical to me.

God Bless my friend.

JB

You mention of personal experience as well as people who have been miraciously changed or healed by the power of his name. What about for all those people of which is name has not healed of cured? What about the people who have spontaenously been contracted with cancer or some other disease? There have been just as many cases of this-if not more-as there have been of people being healed 'from the word'. What of my personal experiences and the experiences of every other athiest out there? We have overcame trials and hardships just as you Christians have, and without your god. Anyways, this is completely irrelevant to the topic.

Yehushuan wrote:

Only if you mean “written” eye-witness account. I shall contend that God was there, and He most certainly can provide me with a verbal eye-witness account were it to become necessary that we talk of such things.

Yes, I mean a written eye-witness account. My apologies to everyone for my lack of clarity.

45degreeN wrote:

Julius Caesar for instance: we only have one 5-6 century manuscripts of his life. Copies of copies of copies.

We have a lot more than that to show for his existence. Please read what I have above in my post.

Last edited by Nightmare on Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

admin
Beloved Admin

Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1803

Location: Macau, China

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Nightmare wrote:

Straight and simple, I don't believe that there exists a historical Jesus. Perhaps I should say, I don't believe there are any first hand eyewitness accounts of Jesus. Anyone care to prove otherwise?

We are not talking about being a deity here, just existing on earth?

I had thought it was well established he did exist by historians - but you are calling for proof so this is a great post.

Would anyone like to google for historical information on Jesus that he existed, from a valid historical source? My memory tells me there was a birth record recorded - not sure about that.

For now, I would put this question up there with "Did Aushwitz exist" but hey - we learn new things all the time. Will be interested to see where this thread goes.
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ragman13
German Shepherd

Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject:

Hello Nightmare, hope you are doing well tonight. Anywhere that you see bold added to quotes it is my addition.

You have posted a lot and I will probably miss most of it just choosing to give a short post before bed.

Nightmare wrote:

We have no coins of him, no statues.

For starters coins and statues do not qualify as eyewitness accounts.

How about a historical account, from a non-Christian
Roman Historian Cornelius Tacitus wrote:

Quote:

Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, [Christ]the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius:

Annals XV, 44

Roman Historian Suetonius wrote:

Quote:

As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chresus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.

Life of Claudius 25.4

That sound like the account given in the book of Acts 18:2

Quote:

And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently come from cItaly with his wife Priscilla, because dClaudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them,

This took place in AD 49. Luke wrote the book of Acts after writing the Gospel of Luke. You stated that most scholars regard the Gospel of Mark as the oldest, if this is the case how is it that either of these Gospels were written after 70 AD? Another point along these lines is the absence in the book of Acts or in any of the NT writings of any mention of the destruction of the Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus prophesy was fulfilled you would thing that His followers would want to brag about that. Also There is no mention in Acts by Luke of the death of Paul. That is enough for a start.

Suetonius also wrote:

Quote:

Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.

Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

This gives credibility to the quote from Cornelius Tacitus.

Nightmare wrote:

No portraits or paintings of him from his lifetime. In fact, we don't have a single written eye-witness account from within his life. Jesus did not write anything down. Not even the scribes who saw his miracles wrote anything down. I just find it hard to believe that considering how big of an impact he is alleged to have had during his time, we do not have a single eye-witness account of him.

Not that there would be any portraits or paintings of Him from his lifetime. But the point about no writing from the scribes is a good point. This could be easily explained by the complete destruction of Jerusalem with fire so hot that it melted the gold in the temple walls.

Then there is Josephus who wrote:

Quote:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, [Section left out believed to be added later by the Catholic Church] for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. [Section left out believed to be added later by the Catholic Church] . . . and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him;[Section left out believed to be added later by the Catholic Church] And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Antiquities, XCIII, 33

Nightmare wrote:

Let's take a look at the closest thing that Christians call "evidence" for his existance;[sic] the gospels. For one, the authors of the gospels are anonymous. This is undisputable.[sic]

I will wait for your explanation on this.

Nightmare wrote:

Being generous, the average lifespan of a human back then was thirty years.

Do you have a source for this information?

Julius Caesar lived from 100 BC – 44 BC Living 56 years
Augustus lived from 63 BC - 14AD. Living 77 years
Tiberius lived from 42 BC – AD 37 Living 79 years

That was just three consecutive Roman emperors. I knew the name Julius Caesar so I started with him, and followed with the successor.

Nightmare wrote:

Give me a break. Read my above quotes again, if you need more I can provide them, or you could actually look into it yourself. Goodnight Nightmare, may God bless you with peaceful dreams.
Very Happy

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Plotinus
Big Lion

Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986

Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:29 am Post subject:

eleven wrote:

Plotinus wrote:

About the scriptures, I agree one hundred percent with you. As far as Alexander is concerned, there are contemporary writings, although surprisingly nothing genuine from Aristotle! Alexander the Great is even mentioned in the Bible (Daniel 8:5--8, 21--22).
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RevJP
Moderator

Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003

Location: USA

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:38 am Post subject:

A great resource is the book "A Case for Christ" by Lee Stroebel. It examines the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. _________________ JP's Mind - my blog Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

Plotinus
Big Lion

Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986

Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:41 am Post subject:

Nightmare wrote:

Well I doubt that Jesus had an impact on thousands and thousands during his ministry in Palestine. The usual argument for the lack of writing evidence about Jesus from other sources is that Jesus was--in the eyes of the Romans--utterly "insignificant." Secondly, most people who could write were of "significance," Roman citizens, learned Jewish scholars and the like, and would not have cared a hoot about some obscure eccentric wandering around talking about things they knew to be total "rubbish." Such madmen were a dime a dozen. What's to talk about? So is it reasonable to expect some contemporary to write about him? Given the standards of literacy of the time, I would say no.
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590

Location: Aux Arcs

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:56 am Post subject:

Plotinus wrote:

Nightmare wrote:

True enough, I think.
Really, he directly impacted the lives of a few thousand locals in a backwater province of the empire, and was of little concern to the administration of the time. Even to Pilate, he was only a bone tossed out to satisfy the throng of petulant local bigwigs that he was charged with keeping placated.

His impact was not truly felt in the empire until long after most of his contemporaries had been eliminated.

More importantly, The writings of his followers was more to communicate the ideas, rather than to record for posterity.
It actually did not occur to them that anyone would be around 2000 years later having such a discussion. Remember, they fully expected his return any day.

As for Alexander, his impact was immediate, and at the time, restructured the universe. A lot of people had a lot to say about him, then. Even so, I would say, very little of what was probably written about him survives today.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV)

Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Nightmare wrote:

Straight and simple, I don't believe that there exists a historical Jesus. Perhaps I should say, I don't believe there are any first hand eyewitness accounts of Jesus. Anyone care to prove otherwise?

If you believe that's the case, our entire civilization has been the result based on an excellent work of fiction. Who would have imagined that a handful of fishermen from Galilee pulled-off the greatest hoax the world has ever seen! Wink

Mattathias
King of the Jungle

Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991

Location: Atlanta

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Ryck wrote:

Who would have imagined that a handful of fishermen from Galilee pulled-off the greatest hoax the world has ever seen! Wink

Fishermen? What fishermen? Does Nightmare believe that these fishermen from Galilee of which you speak actually existed?
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eleven
King of the Jungle

Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459

Location: Texas

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject:

RevJP wrote:

A great resource is the book "A Case for Christ" by Lee Stroebel. It examines the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus.

Really JP, did you like that book?
I read "A Case for the Creator", and I found it somewhat strained. I mean he brought up a lot of good points about Darwins flaws, but other than that, it seemed to me that he was desperately trying to "sell" God, so I was not impressed by the book.

I'm sure God can "sell" Himself.
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