Jesus is the Father

larryjf · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:34 am Post subject: Jesus is the Father

I have a feeling this will open up a can of worms. Both trinitarians and those who deny the deity of Jesus will come against this. Let me start by saying that I am just posing some thoughts, and i don't necesarilly adhere to these thoughts.

Isa 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
This verse calls Jesus 'Eternal Father'. Isn't this saying that Jesus is the Father?

If Jesus is not the Father, does the bible contradict itself?

+ Genesis the first chapter God the Father created all things .
Isaiah 44:24 God made all things alone and by himself .
The Contradiction - St. John 1:3 & 10 with Colossians 1:14-16 -- Here the Bible says that everything was made by Jesus.

+ Acts 3:15 & 26 with Galatians 1:1 God the Father raised up Jesus from the dead.
The Contradiction John 2:19 & 21 Jesus said, "Destroy this temple (his body) and in three days I will raise it up.

You must keep in mind the dual nature of Christ, being God manifest in the flesh, he could speak and act as both man and God. So in effect, when He was praying to His Father, He was acting as man.

Deuteronomy 6: 4-9 Hear, O Israel, the LORD our god is one LORD.
This is known as the SH'MAH in Hebrew liturgy.
The Apostles and authors of the New Testament, being Jewish, were taught the SH'MAH from childhood on up. They could not possibly believe in a trinity consisting of three separate and distinct persons. They knew that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Isaiah. 1:4 - Here Isaiah states that the LORD is the HOLY One of Israel. In the New Testament Jesus is known as the Holy One of Israel. This term is used over fifty times in the bible. Never once was the term Holy Two or Holy Three ever used.

Isa 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Yes, Jesus Christ of the New Testament is the LORD Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Who is equal to God?
Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Answer - Jesus Christ.
Phillipians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Isaiah 54: 5 - Thy Maker is thine husband: the LORD of hosts is his name, and they Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; the God of the whole earth shall he be called.
The church is now the bride of Christ. What an honor to be the bride of God of the whole earth. His name is Jesus.

Jn 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Jesus tells us that if we have seen Him, we have seen the Father.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev. 4:2 -- "...Immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne."
Notice that "ONE" sat on the throne.
Rev. 4:6-8 -- There was a diversified group about the throne, worshipping Him that sat on the throne. (Vs. 8 -- This tells us Who was sitting on the throne.) "...They rest not day and night, saying Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."
Rev. 1:8 -- Jesus said He was the One which is, and which was, and which is to come, The Almighty.

This is just some of the stuff that i have been pondering. I would love some feedback.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6842 Location: USA

As I see it. The only way to truly dispute the doctrine of the Trinity is to say that the bible contradicts itself. If then, this is the case, everything else is irrelevant so why bother talking about it?

I and the Father are one...

In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....

His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father...

To dispute this you must needs dispute the veracity of Scripture.

larryjf · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:37 am Post subject:

RevJP,

So are you saying that what i have posted is incorrect? If so, tell me where it is wrong.

If you are saying that what i posted is correct, it is speaking 'against' the trinity. Basically the post argues the point of Jesus being the Father - that there is no distinction or division between them (except for the flesh of Jesus, of course). The idea that there is 1 person in the 'Godhead', and that 1 person is Jesus.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6842 Location: USA

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

larryjf,

Jesus and the Father are not the same person. But you know I do not accept the Trinity doctrine--so how do I understand this?

Joh 14:7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you do know Him, and have seen Him.
Joh 14:8 And Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, Am I so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? The one seeing Me has seen the Father! And how do you say, Show us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The Words which I speak to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me, He does the works.

On the one hand Jesus said that if we have seen him, we have seen the Father. Elsewhere in John Jesus says that no man has seen the Father—only the Son can reveal him. He told the Pharisees they had not seen or heard the Father, yet they had seen and heard Jesus.

Is Jesus the Father? No. Is he the Son of God? Yes. In him we see the Father because in him the fullness of God dwells. Those who are his can see the Father in Christ as well as in those who belong to the Son. Those who do not belong to the Father cannot see the Father in any of the body of Christ.

2Jo 1:9 Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ, this one has the Father and the Son.

Jesus had the nature of his Father. He was the only begotten one who ever had his Father’s nature and make up. Otherwise the Father would have remained invisible to the rest of his offspring:

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.

Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of God lives in bodily form.

Jesus reveals the Father. They are not one and the same, but they are one, and of the same nature.

1Co 15:45 So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7

Christ is the last man/Adam, who became a life-giving spirit. That is the Father’s nature.

larryjf · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:42 am Post subject:

gswisher,

What about all the other bible verses that i posted? Isa 9:6 said that Jesus is the 'eternal Father'. Are you saying that He is not? What about the fact that God alone created all things, and Jesus created all things? Or the Phillipians verse that made Jesus equal to the Father? There is much to my post that your response doesn't really answer.

In regards to the difference between the Father and Jesus - my posting suggests that it is only because of the flesh. The idea that Jesus has 2 natures, that of God and that of man.

Nobby · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:17 pm Post subject: Elohim

.E-lo-him (e-lo'-him God: Hebrew name used in parts of the OT
That's all that was in the Webster.

larryjf · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:21 pm Post subject:

Thanks Nobby. I also understand that the word Elohim is actually plural. Very interesting, isn't it?

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6842 Location: USA

Deu 6:4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
4 Shema Yisraˆl, Yehowah, Elohainoo, Yehowah aichod,\} ”Hear, Israel, Jehovah, our God,is one Jehovah”. On this passage the Jews lay great stress; and it is one of the four passages which they write on their phylacteries: On the word\{ Elohim,\} Simeon Ben Joachi says: “Come and see the mystery of the word\{ Elohim:\} there are three degrees, and each degree is by itself alone, and yet they are all one, and joined together in one, and are not divided from each other”. the Lord

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

larryjf,

I think you may be emphasizing the literal over the spiritual meaning. Isaiah does not say Jesus is the Father, but his name shall be called Father. Taking one's name does not make one synonymous with another.

Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, we will eat our own bread and wear our own clothing; only let us be called by your name, to take away our shame.

Does this mean the Israelites are the Father?

Isa 7:14 So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.

Did anyone literally fulfill this in the NT? Did someone call Jesus by the name Imannuel? It refers to his nature.

He is also called Prince of Peace. Can the Father be a Prince? No, but the Prince can represent the reign of his Father. (Mat 21:37-38)

A name is a representation of one's nature...
Isa 55:13 Instead of the thornbush, the fir tree shall come up; instead of the brier, the myrtle shall come up; and it shall be for a name to Jehovah, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

I think I have addressed your point here. You also have to take into consideration the countless examples where the Father and Son are treated as seperate entities, as well as where the one relates to the other. IE: the Father loves the Son, he who has the Son has the Father, the Son pleases the Father, the Father crushed the Son, the Lord said to my LORD etc.

Zathrus · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:21 pm Post subject: Hoo-ray!!!

larryjf · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:23 pm Post subject:

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

ljf,

You seem to be saying that Jesus in the flesh is the Son of God and without flesh he is the Father. Is this accurate?

larryjf · Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:12 am Post subject:

Kind of, but not really.
It's more like without the flesh He is God.
In the flesh He is both God AND man.

It gets a little more complicated when we consider the resurrected Jesus. He is no longer in corrupted flesh, but He is in a body.

The points i was trying to make on this thread deal with what is called 'modalism'. The idea that God is 1, but that He manifests Himself in 3 different modes (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

This is just something i was wanting to discuss, it is not something i hold to as truth.

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

OK. And for the sake of discussion, i see problems with modalism. Mainly because God does not need to ask things from himself to be received by himself in order to disperse himself:

(MKJV) And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,

Also, Jesus is a Mediator between God and man. 1Ti 2:5 For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,

The word also indicates that there is one beside God.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Christ is now at the right hand of his Father.

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

And if Christ and the Father are one and the same, then so am I as Christ.

Jesus prayed that all may be one, as You are in Me, Father, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Joh 17:22 And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, as We are One:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in one; and that the world may know that You sent Me and loved them, even as You loved Me.