 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| eleven wrote: | First of all I can't find anywhere in the Bible where there is any mention of "canonization" , can you???
Is this what we were all meant to aspire too?
|
Of course, I agree, my friend. This is not in the bible. My argument was not intended to support the canonization process. I merely meant to say that the process was not malicious. As far as the word "saint" is concerned, its usage in the NT is simply to refer to brothers and sisters in Christ. I prefer not to divide people into groups--saints and non-saints. Therefore, I do not use the term "saint."
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Plotinus wrote: | | eleven wrote: | First of all I can't find anywhere in the Bible where there is any mention of "canonization" , can you???
Is this what we were all meant to aspire too?
|
Of course, I agree, my friend. This is not in the bible. My argument was not intended to support the canonization process. I merely meant to say that the process was not malicious. As far as the word "saint" is concerned, its usage in the NT is simply to refer to brothers and sisters in Christ. I prefer not to divide people into groups--saints and non-saints. Therefore, I do not use the term "saint." |
Not malicious? Of course it is. That is the purpose of this thread - to reveal the darkeness of all this nonsense.
And yes, I agree with you. There should be no division of saints, we are ALL saints. But this church claims the canonization of saints. Sounds official, doesn't it?
Sounds authoritative, doesn't it? But is it Biblical?? NO!!!
So to what authority are they answering?
Answer: None. This is there own charade.
Their is no such thing as a canonized saint.
This is something that the catholic church came up with - nothing more.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
eleven, may I ask you a question? Can you tell me how the Spirit led you to a non-denominational church? I know this could be very personal, but it's something I would like to hear.
I appreciate your attitude of the freedom of each individual's walk with God. I am walking mine and you are walking yours. Isn't that what "religion" means? Remember, that's the title of our thread. Or do you even believe in religion? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cballard wrote: | eleven, may I ask you a question? Can you tell me how the Spirit led you to a non-denominational church? I know this could be very personal, but it's something I would like to hear.
I appreciate your attitude of the freedom of each individual's walk with God. I am walking mine and you are walking yours. Isn't that what "religion" means? Remember, that's the title of our thread. Or do you even believe in religion? |
Hi cb,
Sorry I've taken so long to answer this, but I really had to meditate on it to give you a fair answer.
First and foremost, no, I don't believe in religion.
Religion is manmade, God is of the spirit.
I have found that religion and spirituality, most often, have nothing to do with each other.
I am not in search of religion, I am in search of God.
So how did the Spirit lead me to a non-denominational church? Let's go back a bit. I was a catholic who attended mass every Sunday. And as much as I was in love with Jesus, every Sunday I would walk out of RC church feeling depressed, cold, unfulfilled, empty, but most of all LONELY. I didn't understand it. What was the problem? I thought I was doing everything right. I had gone thru all of the sacraments, took my daughter to church, knew every prayer by heart. Geez, if you asked me to, I could have recited the whole mass for you. But my heart was hurting.
The RC church "religion" states that the catholic church is the one true religion, and if you leave it, you are doomed to hell. Wow. That's a powerful statement, and a wonderful tool of oppression and guilt. People are afraid to step outside its door for fear of God's wrath.
So they keep trying. They keep trying to do what's "right". They keep trying to do what every good catholic is asked to do. They keep trying to put their hearts into worship in the mass. But it doesn't work.
And as long as you stay there, you won't understand why it doesn't work. It doesn't work because most of what they teach has absolutely no basis in the Bible whatsoever, it's just a bunch of rules and rituals that they made up.
I finally got the courage one day to say, enough is enough. I went to God in prayer and said, I'm sorry!!!
Lord, I'm sorry , but I just can't keep doing this!!!
I need You and I need to find you. Please lead me.
My mother was appalled. If you leave the church, you will die! I told her, I feel dead now. I'll take it up with God.
I can't begin to tell you all the messages God sent my way as far as leading goes, but suffice it to say, certain things started to cross my path, and I started paying real close attention. First thing I was introduced to was an NIV Student Study Bible. I devoured it! First the first time in my life, I read the Bible. Not only read it, but began to understand it. But the first thing I learned is, not much of what is considered Roman Catholic, is in the Bible at all! I was shocked!!!
There is no mention of "confession"
There is no mention of "confirmation"
There is no mention of a "rosary"
There is no mention of ceremonies to Mary.
There is no mention of praying to numerous saints for various reasons.
There is no mention of making a child wait until they are 6 or 7 to receive "first" communion.
There is no mention of a eucharist.
And what was most infuriating to me is, there is no mention of Bible teaching in the RC church.
What a great way to keep congregants blind!!!
And then tell them they can't leave!!!
The RC church has numerous ways of controlling people and keeping them stupid. What a racket!!!
I could add so much more to this, but I think you get the idea. For decades, I was chasing my tail trying to be a good catholic, instead of being a good disciple. But I didn't know any better because the RC church isn't Bible based. They don't teach scripture. Oh sure, they do a reading here and there, big deal. It is never explained, never applied, just read. Who cares?
But my HEART KNEW the difference. Whatever homing device God placed in us was sounding the alarm in my soul declaring that something was terribly WRONG in this place. So I took the chance and left. Best move I every made, because I also found out that Jesus never said anything about the Roman Catholic church being the true religion either! So I guess the jokes on them.
So I can fully understand why Mother Theresa felt so empty. As devoted as she was, and as rewarded as she will be, her life on this earth was as someone held in bondage by the RC's. She truly is a Saint!!!
And now these RC men of faith, and trust, and love, and all that is holy (don't make me gag) are now going to betray her trust and go against her dying wishes, to "prove" how faithful she really was.
Gentleman all you are proving is how despicable YOU are. Because another philosophy of the RC church is that a life of suffering is a life of spiritual nobility.
Guilt, fear, pain, suffering, lowliness, are all seen as "holy life" as long as you do it praising God the entire time.
Ya know what? That's a sick mentality - it truely is.
That's why they are going to publish those letters, to show how much Theresa "suffered" for God (and isn't that wonderful,) when in actually, they can't see beyond their own noses. The only suffering Mother Theresa has to do was endure the endless barage of nonsense and unscriptural crappola that these "infallible" people unloaded on her and continue to unload on millions of people every day.
I have found truth, peace, and love in places where religion dies.
No my dears, you are way out of line.
No more kissing of rings on self-proclaimed infallible icons.
I'm dancing away from you , and as far as I am concerned, you can kiss my royal assets good-bye!
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| eleven wrote: |
The only anger in regards to this CW is that the catholic religion is the most powerful religion in the world.
Yet their doctrine is completely UNBIBLICAL.
I could even see past that, except that their rules and regulations actually hurt people, and I'm sick of it!
I'm sick to death of people being used and abused in the name of God, and what they just did to Mother Theresa was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
So now I am fighting back. I may be a nobody in the vast expanse of this universe. And I'm sure I don't mean much on the global scale either. But I have a voice, and I will use it. If even one person is freed from the oppression of this hypocritical bunch of liars, then my job is complete.
|
And your prime target is this dead elderly woman who lived her entire life devoted to God famed as a humanitarian and advocate for the poor and helpless, who in 1979 was secularly honored for her work by winning the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979?
Can't you find worse targets than this one? 
Besides, this is not news. This information regarding her letters came out back in 2001.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/09/06/teresa.letters
Everybody has their cycles moments of doubt and uncertainty then faith and confirmation. When a person is in a moment of doubt and uncertainty doesn't mean that such moments became the rule for their entire life.
"Mother Teresa wrote numerous letters to her confessors and superiors over a 66-year period. She had asked that her letters be destroyed, concerned that "people will think more of me -- less of Jesus." However, despite this request, the correspondences have been compiled in Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light (Doubleday). In one publicly released letter to a spiritual confidant, the Rev. Michael van der Peet, she wrote, "Jesus has a very special love for you. [But] as for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great, that I look and do not see, — Listen and do not hear — the tongue moves [in prayer] but does not speak ... I want you to pray for me — that I let Him have [a] free hand."
Many news outlets have referred to Mother Teresa's writings as an indication of a "crisis of faith." However, others such as Brian Kolodiejchuk, Come Be My Light's editor, draw comparisons to the 16th century mystic St. John of the Cross, who coined the term the "dark night" of the soul to describe a particular stage in the growth of some spiritual masters. The Vatican has indicated that the letters would not affect her path to sainthood. In fact, the book is edited by the Rev. Brian Kolodiejchuk, her postulator."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa#Spiritual_life
I don't know what kind of mileage you expect with this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ryck wrote: |
And your prime target is this dead elderly woman who lived her entire life devoted to God famed as a humanitarian and advocate for the poor and helpless, who in 1979 was secularly honored for her work by winning the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979?
Can't you find worse targets than this one? |
Hey Ryck, I have a suggestion for you Bro.
Before you post something, it would be a good idea to know what the topic is.
If you had read this thread from the beginning, you have seen that I was not targeting Mother Theresa, I was defending her. So you can keep your " ", for now, and get back to me when you understand what was written here. Then we'll talk.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| eleven wrote: | | Ryck wrote: |
And your prime target is this dead elderly woman who lived her entire life devoted to God famed as a humanitarian and advocate for the poor and helpless, who in 1979 was secularly honored for her work by winning the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979?
Can't you find worse targets than this one? |
Hey Ryck, I have a suggestion for you Bro.
Before you post something, it would be a good idea to know what the topic is.
If you had read this thread from the beginning, you have seen that I was not targeting Mother Theresa, I was defending her. So you can keep your " ", for now, and get back to me when you understand what was written here. Then we'll talk. |
Ok, so you are not targetting Mother Teresa and you're upset that her letters were not burned.
Let me know if I'm on topic now or I should bow out.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ryck wrote: |
Ok, so you are not targetting Mother Teresa and you're upset that her letters were not burned.
Let me know if I'm on topic now or I should bow out. |
No, I don't want you to bow out.
I just want you to understand what I'm saying.
I am very angry that these letters weren't burned, not because of what she wrote, but because it was her dying wish, and the RC church didn't honor that.
On top of that, it is my contention that her "lack of faith" was not due to her love for God, or her choice of work, but because of the oppression of the RC church.
It is the RC leadership that I am targeting, not Mother Theresa.
Ok, so now that we are back up to speed, what's on your mind?
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
eleven wrote:
| Quote: | Because another philosophy of the RC church is that a life of suffering is a life of spiritual nobility.
Guilt, fear, pain, suffering, lowliness, are all seen as "holy life" as long as you do it praising God the entire time.
Ya know what? That's a sick mentality - it truely is. |
So, are you saying Mother Teresa's life was an example of Jesus' love or an example of a sick mentality?
eleven, Jesus tells us we must love God with all our hearts, minds, and soul and to love our neighbor as ourselves. I don't think you understand what being a Christian is all about. Sounds to me like you believe all we need to do after we accept Christ into our hearts is sit around and wait for Him to call us. I think your living in la-la land. Sorry I feel that way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cballard wrote: | eleven wrote:
| Quote: | Because another philosophy of the RC church is that a life of suffering is a life of spiritual nobility.
Guilt, fear, pain, suffering, lowliness, are all seen as "holy life" as long as you do it praising God the entire time.
Ya know what? That's a sick mentality - it truely is. |
So, are you saying Mother Teresa's life was an example of Jesus' love or an example of a sick mentality? |
I'm saying that Mother Theresa knew in her heart how to follow Jesus. Her lack of faith stemmed from all the nonsensical doctrine that the RC church dumps on people.
| cballard wrote: |
eleven, Jesus tells us we must love God with all our hearts, minds, and soul and to love our neighbor as ourselves. I don't think you understand what being a Christian is all about. Sounds to me like you believe all we need to do after we accept Christ into our hearts is sit around and wait for Him to call us. I think your living in la-la land. Sorry I feel that way. |
You would be incorrect, but seeing as how you are going to jump to conclusions.........
Mother Theresa's love for God had nothing to do with her lack of faith in Him, but for her lack of faith in the RC church.
If you don't agree with something I write here, or you don't understand it, I would prefer that you ask me rather than assume anything.
Thanks!
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChristianWoman1
Labrador
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 300
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm still with you 11 and enjoying your posts...just haven't had enough time to respond.
Thank you for sharing 
_________________
____________________
Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
ROMANS 12:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pete
Big Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 992
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cballard wrote: | | Well, I guess that's the way you feel, eleven. At this point, there is no chance to even have a rational discussion with you. However, after you're finished ranting and raving, the Church will still be here as she was in the beginning and will remain until the end of time. I believe Christ left a Church with divine authority to govern in His name (Mt. 16:13-20, 18:18; Lk. 10:16). I believe it when Christ promised that this Church would last until the end of time (Mt. 16:18, 28:19-20; Jn. 14:16). I believe my Church is that Church. Sorry, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. |
The Catholic Church revealed some letters? That's nothing.
The Roman process of canonization is a total farce.
Example: In October, 1998, Pope John II paid a visit to Croatia to beatify Cardinal Alojsije Stepinac. This is one step away from declaring someone a saint. What were the Cardinal’s accomplishments for nomination to such a high status within the Catholic Church?
During WW II, as Archbishop of Zagreb, he directed and perpetrated mass murder in the name and employ of the Vatican. He stated that “Hitler is an envoy of God.” In Yugoslavia, between 1941 and ’45, with the support of the Catholic clergy, 299 Orthodox churches were destroyed, 240,000 Orthodox Serbs were forcibly converted to Catholicism, and about 750,000 Orthodox Christians were murdered, after gruesome torture. Sounds like the Inquisition revisited.
Ultimately, in 1946, he was tried and sentenced to prison for 16 years for war crimes, but later released for health reasons. I guess in the eyes of the Vatican, Stepinac possesses all the qualifications for sainthood.
Maybe Mother Teresa was just too nice. cballard, you can have your church. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
eleven said:
| Quote: | On top of that, it is my contention that her "lack of faith" was not due to her love for God, or her choice of work, but because of the oppression of the RC church.
It is the RC leadership that I am targeting, not Mother Theresa. |
First of all, faith is a gift. God is the one who gives this gift. You're not going to get faith by any certain church. I think Mother Teresa knew this. To say her lack of faith was due to her church and beliefs is complete nonsense.
You are angry at the RC leadership because you think they are hypocrites and liars. And I say, there are many, many, preachers of every denomination and even among us laymen, who are hypocrites and liars. Why are you particularly angry at the RC? What is it they teach that shows oppression? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm still following along. Eleven thanks for sharing your story and your thoughts. I'm not from a Catholic background, but I see similarities between the hierarchy of Catholicism holding dominion over the faith of the lay people and some of the "spiritual leadership" that I have spent years under in charismatic and penticostal circles.
Anytime that the "leadership" in any church organization starts teaching and thinking that those who are under their care or oversight can't hear from God themselves, and need to be told what to think, that's trouble!
And I have witnessed how leaders with that mentality gon on to having a greater and greater sense of entitlement, to where I can see them thinking they're entitled to ignore a dying woman's wish as the Catholic hierarchy has done.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pete
Big Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 992
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Zathrus wrote: | I'm still following along. Eleven thanks for sharing your story and your thoughts. I'm not from a Catholic background, but I see similarities between the hierarchy of Catholicism holding dominion over the faith of the lay people and some of the "spiritual leadership" that I have spent years under in charismatic and penticostal circles.
Anytime that the "leadership" in any church organization starts teaching and thinking that those who are under their care or oversight can't hear from God themselves, and need to be told what to think, that's trouble!
|
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it:
• "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
• "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
• "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Outside the Church there is No Salvation.
The Roman Church has been pretty clear about its position over the centuries - acknowledge the pope, or go to hell. In short, what they are saying is that God speaks only through the pope. Better kiss his ring, and get your beads out, folks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
