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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, I guess that's the way you feel, eleven. At this point, there is no chance to even have a rational discussion with you. However, after you're finished ranting and raving, the Church will still be here as she was in the beginning and will remain until the end of time. I believe Christ left a Church with divine authority to govern in His name (Mt. 16:13-20, 18:18; Lk. 10:16). I believe it when Christ promised that this Church would last until the end of time (Mt. 16:18, 28:19-20; Jn. 14:16). I believe my Church is that Church. Sorry, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2658
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Christianwoman1 the issue of canonization is one that is well documented and really settled for nearly 1500 years.
The choices that were made were based upon a very few criteria.
Did an apostle write it?
Did the church use it?
Does it contradict any known sayings of the apostles?
The process of canonization was never done by a single individual but by general acceptance primarily and then by church councils.
It was far easier to throw something out than to accept it and that I guess is why the apocrypha was left out by the translators in Switzerland.
By being left out, it doesn't mean it is worthless it merely means that it doesn't stand up to the standards for the canon and therefore less valuable. Many writings of the early church leaders were spread around the church and were used extensively but they didn't make the canon for the above reasons.
There was an active cult of agnostics who wrote extensively around that time and their literature was attempted to be included, but not only the church fathers but most of the membership recognized them and rejected them.
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | Well, I guess that's the way you feel, eleven. At this point, there is no chance to even have a rational discussion with you. However, after you're finished ranting and raving, the Church will still be here as she was in the beginning and will remain until the end of time. I believe Christ left a Church with divine authority to govern in His name (Mt. 16:13-20, 18:18; Lk. 10:16). I believe it when Christ promised that this Church would last until the end of time (Mt. 16:18, 28:19-20; Jn. 14:16). I believe my Church is that Church. Sorry, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. |
Like I have posted numerous times, if you are being fed there, then stay there.
However there is no "ranting and raving" going on from my end of it. I just want to present my side of it.
But as I feared, people aren't even willing to listen to me tell my story, just willing to defend the church to the death. Ok, well I'm not going to force anything on anyone. But my question to you is this. If you are so sure they are doing nothing wrong, than why won't you even listen? Cause I haven't even begun yet.
cballard just said there is no use even having a rational discussion with me. Why not?
I'm a rational person. I'm not even angry as I post these messages. I am in good spirits, and feeling just fine. But you are assuming I'm some raging maniac. No I'm not. I just want to share my experience.
What's the problem?
In fact, if I'm not mistaken I think it was you cballard that suggested this, wasn't it?
So now you're not even gonna stick around for it?
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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PS - Christ did leave the church. What He never left, nor instructed was to create denominations. That's where evil resides.
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | Christianwoman1 the issue of canonization is one that is well documented and really settled for nearly 1500 years.
The choices that were made were based upon a very few criteria.
Did an apostle write it?
Did the church use it?
Does it contradict any known sayings of the apostles?
The process of canonization was never done by a single individual but by general acceptance primarily and then by church councils.
It was far easier to throw something out than to accept it and that I guess is why the apocrypha was left out by the translators in Switzerland.
By being left out, it doesn't mean it is worthless it merely means that it doesn't stand up to the standards for the canon and therefore less valuable. Many writings of the early church leaders were spread around the church and were used extensively but they didn't make the canon for the above reasons.
There was an active cult of agnostics who wrote extensively around that time and their literature was attempted to be included, but not only the church fathers but most of the membership recognized them and rejected them. |
Let me add -
That doesn't mean that rejected books are not valid. It only means that the church fathers felt they should not be included because they are of a more historical reference rather that Word of God.
For example, Maccabees.
Thanks 45.
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1803
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Well I'm no fan of the Catholic Church - but when I heard they were publishing the letters I thought it was a good thing. Showing her doubts gave us insight into the real person, rather than a false image created of her.
I was surprised when I heard they were being published, because I had assumed the Catholic church would want to keep up the popular image, not the real inner one. So it actually made me rethink my attitude of the Catholic Church as being oppressive and actively censoring.
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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eleven, I'm happy to hear you are at peace. We'll go on. However, I have to leave home in a few minutes and will be gone all day so I won't be on here.
Tell me, are you saying the church should have no name? Another question. What do you think is the purpose of a church? What did Jesus want His church to do? Perhaps this will lead to a real discussion after all. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | Christianwoman1 the issue of canonization is one that is well documented and really settled for nearly 1500 years.
The choices that were made were based upon a very few criteria.
Did an apostle write it?
Did the church use it?
Does it contradict any known sayings of the apostles?
The process of canonization was never done by a single individual but by general acceptance primarily and then by church councils.
It was far easier to throw something out than to accept it and that I guess is why the apocrypha was left out by the translators in Switzerland.
By being left out, it doesn't mean it is worthless it merely means that it doesn't stand up to the standards for the canon and therefore less valuable. Many writings of the early church leaders were spread around the church and were used extensively but they didn't make the canon for the above reasons.
There was an active cult of agnostics who wrote extensively around that time and their literature was attempted to be included, but not only the church fathers but most of the membership recognized them and rejected them. |
Um, I kinda thought the "canonization" CW referred to was the process of deciding that MT was qualified for sainthood, rather than any process for deciding which scriptures to include.
And as to the apocrypha, last I looked, The Catholic Church includes it in their Bible.
As to the letters, was it not MT's "friends" rather than "The Church" who failed to honor her wishes to destroy the letters?
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | Well I'm no fan of the Catholic Church - but when I heard they were publishing the letters I thought it was a good thing. Showing her doubts gave us insight into the real person, rather than a false image created of her.
I was surprised when I heard they were being published, because I had assumed the Catholic church would want to keep up the popular image, not the real inner one. So it actually made me rethink my attitude of the Catholic Church as being oppressive and actively censoring. |
But see, this is precisely what I am talking about. To you it seems they have done the right thing, but have they? That's one of the tactics of this leadership---make it appear that you are doing the right thing.
Then turn it into doctrine. Here's what I mean:
As highly esteemed at this woman was (at least that's what the RC's have always claimed) they have totally disregarded her dying wish. At the same time, they are going to elevate her to the position of sainthood.
Whhaaaaaa????
How in the world can you disrespect her, then claim that she is so holy, she should be respected as a canonized saint? If she is that holy, why in the world would you disregard her dying wishes??? What kind of hypocrisy is that? Do you see what I'm saying?
It's like me saying to you, "I think you are the most respectable person I have ever met", then when you die, I make it a point to document everything you've ever done wrong in your life AND make it public. HUH?????????
Understand - saying something is one thing, but just because someone states something, don't make it so.
Watch their actions - it will give them away every time.
The actions of the vatican are what betray them.
There used to be a time (even in this country up until about the past 75 years) that your word was your bond.
You didn't need lawyers, or notaries, or legal documents.
Your word was your bond, sealed with a kiss or a handshake. That was as good as any witnessed, legal document. It was the word of honor.
When God made the covenant promises that started with Abraham, and ended with Jesus, He used no lawyer, no notary, no witness. Seeing no greater, He swore by Himself, that this covenant was for Abraham and ALL his descendants. In case you didn't realize it folks, that means us.
In the Bible it tells us -
Matthew 5
Oaths
33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
If these people felt that they could not honor Mother Theresa's dying wish, then the honorable thing to do would have been to write her back and say, Ya know what? I don't think I want to destroy these letters.
Now tell me, do you think Mother Theresa would have continued to put her doubts into writing if she didn't trust that her dying wish was going to be respected?
She trusted these people! She believed in honor.
But they have disregarded that wish in order to "prove a point". I'm sorry but that is wrong.
In addition, the "point" that they are trying to prove is a total lie.
I'm gonna stop here for now.
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Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional.
Last edited by eleven on Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: |
As to the letters, was it not MT's "friends" rather than "The Church" who failed to honor her wishes to destroy the letters? |
That is the point of this thread. To demonstrate that this "church" is nothing but a lie.
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: |
Tell me, are you saying the church should have no name? Another question. What do you think is the purpose of a church? What did Jesus want His church to do? Perhaps this will lead to a real discussion after all. |
Yes, that is what I'm saying. Denomination was never the design of Christ. We did that - man. The purpose of the church is unity, not separatism. Unless we unite as brothers of Christ, we will never find peace.
Jesus wanted us all to recognize who we are.
Jesus DID NOT die for our sins. Sins are garbage. Who in there right mind would die for garbage!
Jesus died to reveal to us who we truly are - WE ARE THE SONS OF GOD!
What He was trying to tell us is, I don't give a rat's behind what YOU think you've done wrong. GOD LOVES YOU!!!!! Not even death can separate us.
Stop thinking you have to go to confession.
Stop thinking that God is mad at you.
Stop thinking that you need to honor this ritual or the other one.
Stop thinking that we have a vengeful Father that takes delight in punishing you.
Stop thinking that you have to "prove" yourself faithful.
Stop thinking that unless you do what Dr., Pope, Pastor, or Priest says, you will fry in hell.
Stop thinking these evil things!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are the righteousness of God thru the blood of Jesus Christ. It is finished!!!!!!!!!!!
I am who I am!
You are who you are.
Do you know who you are???
What is God's name?
cballard
Think on that.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | I just want to present my side of it.
But as I feared, people aren't even willing to listen to me tell my story, just willing to defend the church to the death. |
I want to hear your side of it, eleven. And I want to hear your story. As much as you're comfortable telling.
There is much abuse going on in the name of "spiritual leadership", not just in the Catholic Church, but among fundamentalist, Charismatic, Pentecostal, and a lot of other religious groups. Not all leaders or leadership bodies are abusive, but there are enough that it is an issue that needs to be heard and addressed. The best way I know to address it is to leave. Trying to change how a leader or leadership staff runs a church or ministry is futile, and is not our place. If they're abusive and misusing their position, the best thing is to leave, never give another dime in their offering, and don't come back.
"Spiritual" leaders know this and that is why the more insecure and abusive ones strongly discourage members from leaving, saying they are proud, unteachable, unfit to be used of God, flighty, unstable, and a host of other nasty things if they leave or even question the ministry or church's party platform. The Catholics of course have the doctrine of "Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salvas" or "no salvation outside of the Church". That means leaving the Church is a guaranteed eternity in the flames of Hell. What a choice! Put up with the abuse or burn forever.
Your story and your thoughts can help people who are still trapped in such a situation. They may be too scared to make a move. They may feel threatened. They may be afraid of being shunned by their former fellow church members after leaving.
I'll go on record as saying that leaving the charismatic and Pentecostal churches which tried to snare me and make me into something I'm not is the best choice I ever made. I only regret the years of my life in which I could have been accomplishing something worthwhile in life but was waiting for my life to begin because I thought it was all going to happen through the church I was involved in.
Anyone reading: If you are in this situation, you know you're in a church scene and you know inside that you don't belong there, then get out and find where you do belong. Don't put it off! Don't be afraid. Don't worry about where you'll go and what you'll do. God will make sure you end up where you should be.
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: |
"Spiritual" leaders know this and that is why the more insecure and abusive ones strongly discourage members from leaving, saying they are proud, unteachable, unfit to be used of God, flighty, unstable, and a host of other nasty things if they leave or even question the ministry or church's party platform. The Catholics of course have the doctrine of "Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salvas" or "no salvation outside of the Church". That means leaving the Church is a guaranteed eternity in the flames of Hell. What a choice! Put up with the abuse or burn forever. |
I hear ya!!! It's not just the catholics, many churches try to pull this deception. The difference is, the catholic leadership has proclaimed that it is "infallible" which is nothing more than a lie encased in a total fabrication.
They have totally presented themselves as people high in knowledge beyond the common man. Their tools consist of intimidation and guilt. Neither of these things comes from God, these are forms of fear, and fear comes from the evil one.
Thank you for your observations.
I will add more.
To anyone out there - if you have found this in your own church family - regardless of denomination, please share with us.
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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eleven, I'm not following your logic very well, but I'll try. You say:
| Quote: | | You are the righteousness of God thru the blood of Jesus Christ. It is finished!!!!!!!!!!! |
I understand you to say, "Faith in Jesus Christ and his death for you is what makes us righteousness." Right?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "It is finished." I take it to mean that the atonement for Adam's sin is removed and we are once more united with God.
I hope you don't mean it doesn't make a difference what I belive or do because I am saved no matter what. Certainly, the Church Jesus left with the Apostles can't fall into unfettered freedom or any just any willy-nilly doctrine.
Can you fill me in on your thinking? |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | eleven, I'm not following your logic very well, but I'll try. You say:
| Quote: | | You are the righteousness of God thru the blood of Jesus Christ. It is finished!!!!!!!!!!! |
I understand you to say, "Faith in Jesus Christ and his death for you is what makes us righteousness." Right?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "It is finished." I take it to mean that the atonement for Adam's sin is removed and we are once more united with God.
I hope you don't mean it doesn't make a difference what I belive or do because I am saved no matter what. Certainly, the Church Jesus left with the Apostles can't fall into unfettered freedom or any just any willy-nilly doctrine.
Can you fill me in on your thinking? |
I would be delighted.
Here's the facts. God loves us. His love is unconditional - meaning we don't have to do a thing. He loves us- Period. Can you handle that?
In fact He loves us so much, it cannot be contained in this universe. Scripture says the earth is His footstool.
His hand easily spans the planets.... we have a Father that is so magnificent, nothing can contain him.
1Kings 8 (Solomon, who was filled with wisdom, is speaking)
27 "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! 28 Yet give attention to your servant's prayer and his plea for mercy, O LORD my God. Hear the cry and the prayer that your servant is praying in your presence this day.
God our Father loves us so much it is beyond -description. Yet thru-out the ages, people still doubted this. So God said, how can I prove it to you? What do you want from me, blood? I can give you that too!!!
So along comes Jesus to deliver the message of unconditional love, mercy and grace. Jesus is the Atonement.
Here is the definintion of Atonement:
1obsolete : reconciliation
2: the reconciliation of God and humankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ
3: reparation for an offense or injury : satisfaction
4Christian Science : the exemplifying of human oneness with God
Here's what it means to be "reborn" To be reborn means that you can forget yourself, forget what you have ever done, forget all the evil you were planning to do, forget what you think you NEED to do to please God, forget everything and ACCEPT that God loves you. Right now, just as you are, God loves you.
His love is so vast, we can't comprehend it.
God says, stop trying to please me, I am pleased with you just the way you are - right now - at this moment.
You are perfection in my sight and I LOVE YOU.
Any doubt you have, or any sin you commited was washed away with the blood of Jesus. If you will only ACCEPT THE GIFT I AM OFFERING YOU, then all is forgiven.
Can you do it? Accept what God is offering you right at this moment. The Atonement.
This is what Jesus died for. To make you perfect in God's eyes. It is right here, right now for the asking.
God is giving it to you on a silver platter. Take it! You are worthy of it! Not because I say so, but because God says so, Jesus says so.
Accept this gift, and you will be reborn!
Cross over. Do it now!!!
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