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Key of Twilight
Big Hamster
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 97
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 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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First I never called you an Anarchist so watch who you are throwing stones at. I said your supposed system of nature would bring about complete Anarchy, there is a difference.
an·ar·chy - noun
1. a state of society without government or law.
2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.
an·ar·chist –noun
1. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.
2. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.
3. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.
Take from it what you will I am out of this conversation 
_________________
Nowhere does the Bible state that the sexual orientation of homosexuality is sinful — it merely instructs anyone, gay or straight, that any sexual act that does not spring from a place of love, respect and commitment to the other person involved is sinful. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Key of Twilight wrote: | | First I never called you an Anarchist so watch who you are throwing stones at. I said your supposed system of nature would bring about complete Anarchy, there is a difference. |
I still can't see the difference. Must be something like the emperor's new clothes. Is it something that only system followers can see? Obviously only anarchy can result in anarchy, just as order brings about order. What difference could you possibly be talking about?!!
| Key of Twilight wrote: | an·ar·chy - noun
1. a state of society without government or law.
2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.
an·ar·chist –noun
1. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.
2. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.
3. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.
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What are you talking about? Which of these do you believe applies to what I have stated? All of these definitions apply to people like yourself who want to institute false, non-entity systems in the place of nature. But nature will always stand, and your illusions will always fade away.
| Key of Twilight wrote: | | Take from it what you will I am out of this conversation |
Nothing to take from it. You're just throwing words together it seems. It is quite natural that you should now leave the conversation, since you weren't ever in it to begin with... a lot like the systems you're promoting - never existed in the first place. So we are in agreement at last: You are out of the conversation. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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He didn't call you an anarchist and since I'm no longer certain what the point of this thread is either, I think I'll bow out for now as well.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | He didn't call you an anarchist and since I'm no longer certain what the point of this thread is either, I think I'll bow out for now as well. |
Ah, I just figured out why you guys imagine that he didn't call me an anarchist. Wow!
Basically I stand for nature, and he said that trusting nature results in anarchy. Therefore what he is saying amounts to calling me an anarchist. But you guys are looking at it in a different way. He didn't openly say: "You are an anarchist", so you're claiming that he didn't call me an anarchist.
I hope you can have the courage to reconsider and regroup. Just slow down, calm your mind, and look at the situation with fresh eyes, without preconceptions. If you do that you'll see that there is no distinction at all. Now, I am not offended or put off, since I know that nature is ordered, and that standing for nature is standing for truth and order. My goal has only been to proclaim nature, and to demonstrate with clear arguments that nature is order, and anything unnatural is chaos.
If you examine it, you will see that what I am saying is true. It isn't the way you're used to thinking about this stuff, so it will take a little effort on your part to consider an unfamiliar alternative. But you can do it if you try. Just ask God about it, and pray and meditate on it.
I'm really not here to win an argument, so no need to be put off. I only defended against the claim that I am an anarchist because it is not correct to let anyone speak against the message of nature. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Well, the way I read all this, your ideas would result in anarchy, of a sort.
Government of any kind is a man-made thing.
I AM an anarchist. If we all were truly enlightened and understood God's plan, anarchy would prevail.
There would be no need for government, at all. People would see what needed done, and would do it. People would have access to all resources, and would know how to manage them properly so that all had their needs met.
The ideal would be a communistic anarchy under God, where all things are available to all people and there is no need for hoarding your resources and defending them against others.
God provides, we share. No one is hungry, no one is jealous of what you have.
All in good time.
However, NOW, my friend, we live in a time where two people seldom see eye to eye on anything, and discord is rampant. Government is required to protect the weak, and the structure of government favors the ambitious.
Your plan relies on human nature, but it is human nature that got us into this mess in the first place.
I agree with you. To follow God, we must find our path, and not rely on the leadership of the government or the church to show us the way. Follow your heart, not the leader.
I personally like to go to church to hear the Word of God from other people, just because I get new views and new perspectives, from the pastors. That is also why I come here. But I do not rely on those pastors or anyone here to determine my path for my walk with God.
The responsibility is mine.
The same with the law of government.
I have been in jail enough to know I'd rather not spend any time there again, if I can avoid it, so I follow the laws of men, within my ability.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Hi Virbate
Utopia or utopian describes an ideally perfect place where everything and every aspect is perfect: socially, politically, and morally. Isn't this what you describe regarding "Natural order"?
Conversly since such an utopian society, while tried many times in different ways has of yet been an impossible goal for Man to meet, "utopian" is also used to describe such an idealistic scheme which is impractical or impossible to execute for social and political reform; which your "Natural order" appears to be. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: | Well, the way I read all this, your ideas would result in anarchy, of a sort.
Government of any kind is a man-made thing.
I AM an anarchist. If we all were truly enlightened and understood God's plan, anarchy would prevail. |
Thanks for that. I notice you use the vital phrase "of a sort". In fact, nature is governed by God's State, and there is no human State. Only in Zion, when we are fully organized, will it be correct to call God's State a Human State. Until then we're still learning the details.
If one conceives of the State as only a human thing, then they will say that nature is anarchy. But this is based on a faulty assumption, since in fact God's State is a reality in our world. Therefore someone who tries to interpret my statements about nature in uniquely human terms will inevitably get confused. So thanks for pointing that out. I think it is a very important point.
| ShardikSon wrote: | However, NOW, my friend, we live in a time where two people seldom see eye to eye on anything, and discord is rampant. Government is required to protect the weak, and the structure of government favors the ambitious.
Your plan relies on human nature, but it is human nature that got us into this mess in the first place.
I agree with you. To follow God, we must find our path, and not rely on the leadership of the government or the church to show us the way. Follow your heart, not the leader.
I personally like to go to church to hear the Word of God from other people, just because I get new views and new perspectives, from the pastors. That is also why I come here. But I do not rely on those pastors or anyone here to determine my path for my walk with God.
The responsibility is mine.
The same with the law of government.
I have been in jail enough to know I'd rather not spend any time there again, if I can avoid it, so I follow the laws of men, within my ability. |
Wonderful! We are fully in agreement here. I would never advocate rebellion against the established authorities. God says that He puts them there to terrorize the wicked, and to help out the good, and I do believe that. The key is not to rely on those systems, and not to be conformed to the world in any way. The key is to think always in natural, organic terms, and to see those systems for what they are. You're lucky to have gone through enough, and to have learned these things for yourself. I hope you can help to convince those who have not seen this side of it. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | Utopia or utopian describes an ideally perfect place where everything and every aspect is perfect: socially, politically, and morally. Isn't this what you describe regarding "Natural order"?
Conversely since such an utopian society, while tried many times in different ways has of yet been an impossible goal for Man to meet, "utopian" is also used to describe such an idealistic scheme which is impractical or impossible to execute for social and political reform; which your "Natural order" appears to be. |
Thanks Ryck. The Natural Order is Utopia only in the specific situation of Zion, where we have learned all there is to know about nature. Jesus said this: "When the student knows everything the Master does, then he is equal to the Master". At that stage, when every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess naturally, with a clear conscience, the truth.
Ultimately, the fulfillment of nature is Utopia - a little place called Zion. But the Natural Order is bigger than that specific case of Zion, where it is fully realized. Jesus Christ lived Naturally, even though He did not see Zion. And His followers also live in the kingdom, but not in Zion.
Natural Order is defined as a Way of understanding - a state of mind. When this reality has been fully revealed, there is Zion. Zion is a special case of the Kingdom of God - where nature is fully revealed. Until then those who follow Christ have the natural understanding at the center of us, and we continue to seek the fulfillment of our revelation. |
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Pete
Big Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 992
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: |
But I stand for freedom - nature. There is a natural decision-making system of government, contained in every human being. It's called choice - free will. Someone who tries to hinder the natural process of choice and action, which God has created, is an oppressor, and an iniquity worker. Plain and simple. |
You keep applying the word "nature" as the key to true religion. Webster say this about the use of the word in terms of religion: "Nature, (religion) the state of man unredeemed by grace." Obviously, then, you believe that the redemptive quality of Christ is not necessary, and that man can redeem himself by his own actions of free will. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | Virbate wrote: |
But I stand for freedom - nature. There is a natural decision-making system of government, contained in every human being. It's called choice - free will. Someone who tries to hinder the natural process of choice and action, which God has created, is an oppressor, and an iniquity worker. Plain and simple. |
You keep applying the word "nature" as the key to true religion. Webster say this about the use of the word in terms of religion: "Nature, (religion) the state of man unredeemed by grace." Obviously, then, you believe that the redemptive quality of Christ is not necessary, and that man can redeem himself by his own actions of free will. |
Webster is providing the definition that the preacher teaches, straight from the Pope. That is not a correct, or logical definition of nature, but it is a popular one, so Webster uses it. When Webster hears the definition I am using, it will include that one as well.
It is impossible for a lost person to find themselves in and of themselves. This is obvious from the very definition of the word "lost". If you could have found yourself in and of yourself you wouldn't be lost, right? It is obvious that I do not believe what you have said that it is obvious that I believe. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | Utopia or utopian describes an ideally perfect place where everything and every aspect is perfect: socially, politically, and morally. Isn't this what you describe regarding "Natural order"?
Conversely since such an utopian society, while tried many times in different ways has of yet been an impossible goal for Man to meet, "utopian" is also used to describe such an idealistic scheme which is impractical or impossible to execute for social and political reform; which your "Natural order" appears to be. |
Thanks Ryck. The Natural Order is Utopia only in the specific situation of Zion, where we have learned all there is to know about nature. Jesus said this: "When the student knows everything the Master does, then he is equal to the Master". At that stage, when every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess naturally, with a clear conscience, the truth.
Ultimately, the fulfillment of nature is Utopia - a little place called Zion. But the Natural Order is bigger than that specific case of Zion, where it is fully realized. Jesus Christ lived Naturally, even though He did not see Zion. And His followers also live in the kingdom, but not in Zion.
Natural Order is defined as a Way of understanding - a state of mind. When this reality has been fully revealed, there is Zion. Zion is a special case of the Kingdom of God - where nature is fully revealed. Until then those who follow Christ have the natural understanding at the center of us, and we continue to seek the fulfillment of our revelation. |
So how do you plan to change everyone's mind? Not everyone will voluntarily agree with your mindset. Therefore, your "Natural Order" isn't going to happen, especially with muslims who have a jihad against zionism - and everything else these days!  |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | Virbate wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | Utopia or utopian describes an ideally perfect place where everything and every aspect is perfect: socially, politically, and morally. Isn't this what you describe regarding "Natural order"?
Conversely since such an utopian society, while tried many times in different ways has of yet been an impossible goal for Man to meet, "utopian" is also used to describe such an idealistic scheme which is impractical or impossible to execute for social and political reform; which your "Natural order" appears to be. |
Thanks Ryck. The Natural Order is Utopia only in the specific situation of Zion, where we have learned all there is to know about nature. Jesus said this: "When the student knows everything the Master does, then he is equal to the Master". At that stage, when every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess naturally, with a clear conscience, the truth.
Ultimately, the fulfillment of nature is Utopia - a little place called Zion. But the Natural Order is bigger than that specific case of Zion, where it is fully realized. Jesus Christ lived Naturally, even though He did not see Zion. And His followers also live in the kingdom, but not in Zion.
Natural Order is defined as a Way of understanding - a state of mind. When this reality has been fully revealed, there is Zion. Zion is a special case of the Kingdom of God - where nature is fully revealed. Until then those who follow Christ have the natural understanding at the center of us, and we continue to seek the fulfillment of our revelation. |
So how do you plan to change everyone's mind? Not everyone will voluntarily agree with your mindset. Therefore, your "Natural Order" isn't going to happen, especially with muslims who have a jihad against zionism - and everything else these days! |
Everyone will voluntarily agree with the natural order. It is inevitable. This is accomplished by the power of God's spirit, and more specifically by the power of the word of truth (clear reasoning with love, empathy and understanding, which is relevant to real life). It's only a matter of time before you and everyone else realizes that what I'm saying makes sense. It just sounds funny at start. Believe me, I went through the same thing. It used to sound crazy to me...
I don't know why I always quote C. S. Lewis... but I'm reminded of this time in "the Dawn Treader" when they got to a land where dreams come true, and there was a guy there. He was all stressed out, almost out of his mind and he said: "This is the land where dreams come true..." They thought that sounded pretty good, then he just repeated "Don't you understand? This is the land where dreams come true!" Then suddenly they realized that it's a dangerous place.
One day, just like it happened to me, someone will tell you about the natural order, and you'll realize that it is true. It coincides with and affirms, and completes everything that you already know (all truth that you already know) and it completely establishes your position and authority as God's child, practically.
Time will tell. Sooner the better, though. That's why I'm here. Not really worried about not getting through, but just playing my part, and hoping for the best solution. All in God's time, it will come about, better than I could ever plan. |
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