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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah that is kind of weird. He says "I testify to you today day" but here the word "today" is a definer.
| Quote: | | Definer: A Definer is a modifier that attributes features to or further defines the word it modifies. Common examples of definers are adjectives (both attributive and predicative structure), appositional words or phrases, and adjectival clauses. |
Porter, S., O'Donnell, M. B., Reed, J. T., Tan,
Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament Glossary
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If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | Hello Ray J, Nice to meet you. I am not going to tell you that you are wrong or right, but I would like for you to address some passages and explain what is meant by them if we are not to be present with the Lord upon death.
1)
Luke 23:43
| Quote: | | And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” |
Was Christ lying to the man on the cross?
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No. But he was mistranslated.
Move the comma to after "today" and it makes better sense because Jesus died that day and it was fortold that he would be dead THREE DAYS and then resurrected. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Some early manuscripts do have some punctuation marks. The Vatican Codex (4th century) shows evidence of a comma after the word "today" in Luke 23:43. The Curetonian version of the Syriac translation (5th century), reads:
| Quote: | | Amen, I say to you today, that with me you will be in the Garden of Eden. |
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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The Rotherham Bible translates the verse as follows:
| Quote: | | "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise." |
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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The Latin Vulgate does not place any punctuation marks in the text (not just this verse).
| Quote: | | et dixit illi Iesus amen dico tibi hodie mecum eris in paradiso |
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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In Luke 23:42 the thief asked Jesus to remember him "when you come into your kingdom." When did (or will) Jesus come into his kingdom?
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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habeshaw
Growing Guppy
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:35 am Post subject: |
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hello Ray J,
i read your post and i said Welcome.
I appreciate your effort to show us the truth, so that we can be saved.
i see two things on all of your posts
1. you know the bible well.
2. But you are not perfect in reading all.
I wonder where do you learn your belife, at first you said Jesus is Inferier, and then you said there is no life after death untill the last judgment day.
let me ask you, do you relly love your God? do you pray much?, do you fast? do you have fathers who teach you what you are speaking? do you think that reading a bible is enough to talk about it?
Any way just answer this things for your self, since this is not intended to talk about this.
But since you are not perfect, you lost some of the bible concepts, Mattattias tells you many things, let me add one.
in the new Testement there is a a verse which states about the conversion between Abraham, Alazar,and the Rich, while Abraham and Alazar were in heaven and the Rich was in hell. If we say we will fall asleep unitl the last day, then from where would we say that Abraham come?
But that is not the case, while we died, we will go to our fate, according to our Work, and the good will of Jesus.
Let God give us Wisdom. |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Matt. I agree that the verse may have been translated wrong.
Now if you could move on to Rev. 4:4 and I thought of another verse.
| Quote: | Mat 17:3
And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.
Mat 17:4
And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” |
Where did they come from?
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | | Where did they come from? |
In v. 9 Jesus indicates that Moses and Elijah had appeared to them in a vision.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Yeah got it sorry about that.
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | | Matt. I agree that the verse may have been translated wrong. |
I don't want to belabor the point but the OT also contains many examples of verses that contain the awkward sounding phrasing.
See the following vv. in Deuteronomy - 4:26, 39, 40; 6:6; 7:11; 8:1, 11, 19; 9:3; 10:13; 11:2, 8, 13, 26, 27, 28, 32; 13:18; 15:5; 19:9; 26:3, 16, 18; 27:1, 4, 10; 28:1, 13, 14, 15; 29:12; 30:2, 8, 11, 15, 16, 18, 19; 32:46.
The wording may just be a Hebraic idiom to emphasize the point.
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | Matt. I agree that the verse may have been translated wrong.
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I heard arguments suggesting that "today" was an idiomatic word much like people say "now" or "right now" to emphasize sureness or certainty not necessarily a specific time frame.
"I tell you now, Justice will be served!"
"I'll get your lost shipment from Japan to you right now, so don't worry about it." |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| habeshaw wrote: |
I wonder where do you learn your belife, at first you said Jesus is Inferier, and then you said there is no life after death untill the last judgment day.
let me ask you, do you relly love your God? do you pray much?, do you fast? do you have fathers who teach you what you are speaking? do you think that reading a bible is enough to talk about it?
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What does one have to do with the other?
If you have an issue with his statements regarding Jesus being inferior, then address the issue not the person talking about it.
By the way, Jesus is constantly referred to as the "Son of God". And we should all know where on the seniority scale where any son is in relation to his father.
There is no indication in the Scriptures that Jesus had an issue being below the scale as God's Son. So maybe you shouldn't either? |
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george
Tadpole
Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 26
Location: ohio
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| The way I see it is very simple. If the dead are alive, then they are not dead and to say that they are is to lie and deceive. The notion that individuals do not truly die comes right out of the mouth of the deceiver. That is precisely what the serpent told Eve. Too many have become accustomed to referring to the body as the real us that dies only to back up and say no that is not the real us. We are somehow supposed to believe that we are both mortal and immortal—dying and yet unable to die. |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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I've been thinking about this and I came up with a question. How would anyone ever know if they were right or wrong? You die the next thing you know your in heaven.
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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