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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: The hidden danger of legalism |
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I recall years ago, asking a missionary this question....
“How would you define legalism?”
And his sarcastic response was,
“A legalist is someone, who has more standards than he does.”
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I am not as quick on my feet as others are, but later I realized, that my response to him should have been, Are you talking about "Bible standards" or "man’s standards”?
This is where I have come to, in my understanding of today’s legalism;
(It is simply, men dictating their personal convictions, upon others!)
-About entertainments, music, activities, etc.-
Each of us have our own personal standards, but most of the time, they don’t apply to everyone else!
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Now for the “hidden danger”, in this thread’s title.
It has to do with Sanctification.
According to 2 Corinthians 3:18, sanctification comes from “obeying the Holy Spirit”, as we are studying God’s Word;
2 Corinthians 3:18
“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
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But what legalism does, is rob God’s people of “true sanctification”, by giving them the counterfeit sanctification, of obeying men, instead of the Holy Spirit.
e.g. (If the Holy Spirit, tells you to throw out your TV, and you do it, this is sanctification, and you are being set apart unto God:) -This is Great!-
-But if your preacher tells you to through out your TV, and you do it, then your simply following his instructions.
Now that won’t do you any good at all, because the Bible doesn't say anything about throwing your TV out.
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The terrible results of this, that I have seen over the years, is how Christians can sit in a legalistic Church for years, and never grow in Christ at all.
They may look right, and walk right and smell right, but it is all being done by the power of the flesh.
True Spiritual growth, doesn’t start, until you start listening and obeying, the Holy Spirit!
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: |
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bigape, in my opinion you are talking about self-righteousness more so than legalism.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | bigape, in my opinion you are talking about self-righteousness more so than legalism. |
I dunno. I think he is pretty close.
Self-righteous folks are pretty hard to miss.
They don't care what you do. They are right and you're going to hell. That pretty well sums up that type.
The legalist isn't happy lest you're seeing things his way, and and is a lot more subtle about it, pointing to the texts, and the the law to show he is in the know.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV)
Last edited by ShardikSon on Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Shardikson said: | Quote: | | The legalist isn't happy lest you're seeing things his way, and and are a lot more subtle about it, pointing to the texts, and the the law to show they are in the know. |
... And half the time, when they are using the bible as a reference, they are taking verses out of context just to 'try' and prove a point.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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A legalist is someone who will adhere to the letter of the law while forgetting what the law was intended to accomplish.
For example-
In the office where I work, the "law" is that there is a staff meeting every Monday at 5p.m.
The reason this law was instated was, to talk about any difficulties in the office, and to keep things running smoothly.
However, if things ARE running smoothly, there is no reason to have a meeting, is there?
But I can guarantee you, those one or two legalists will always show up whether there is something to discuss or not because, THE LAW SAYS SO.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 644
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| BigApe wrote: | | "True Spiritual growth doesn’t start until you start listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit!" |
Over the years, we've heard a lot of people make this statement, either with a period at the end or (as you've done here) with an exclamation point - to emphasize the importance of what has been said.
The problem we see is that nothing has been said.
Unless we tell a person how they can hear the holy Spirit, or explain to them how to obey the holy Spirit, we really haven't told them anything useful at all.
So, the very first question we should ask ourselves is: "How do we believe a person should listen to and obey the holy Spirit?" Because if we don't bother to explain what we mean when we use our fancy Christian words and phrases, we will end up with (as you've said) nothing but a bunch of numb Christians who sit in church for years and never grow in Christ at all.
As we see it, Christianese is the single-greatest detriment to the Gospel ever concocted by man. And Christian forums and Christian websites and Christian books and Christian Bible-studies are full of it - big words and fancy phrases that might sound impressive on the surface but in reality say nothing at all. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | BigApe wrote: | | "True Spiritual growth doesn’t start until you start listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit!" |
Over the years, we've heard a lot of people make this statement, either with a period at the end or (as you've done here) with an exclamation point - to emphasize the importance of what has been said.
The problem we see is that nothing has been said.
Unless we tell a person how they can hear the holy Spirit, or explain to them how to obey the holy Spirit, we really haven't told them anything useful at all.
So, the very first question we should ask ourselves is: "How do we believe a person should listen to and obey the holy Spirit?" Because if we don't bother to explain what we mean when we use our fancy Christian words and phrases, we will end up with (as you've said) nothing but a bunch of numb Christians who sit in church for years and never grow in Christ at all.
As we see it, Christianese is the single-greatest detriment to the Gospel ever concocted by man. And Christian forums and Christian websites and Christian books and Christian Bible-studies are full of it - big words and fancy phrases that might sound impressive on the surface but in reality say nothing at all. |
True enough. But one of the most difficult lessons I have had to learn is, everyone's spiritual journey is their own. I can't tell anyone what is right or wrong, because my journey is not theirs.
When Jesus told Peter, you are going places you do not want to go. And Peter protested asking, and what of John? Jesus said, what concern of that is yours?
I am not the be all and end of all of understanding of the Holy Spirit. I can only speak for myself, and share my experience. My experience should not be YOUR experience. God talks to us all individually.
I have to respect other people's journey.
I don't have all the answers, but to insist that I do, and then proceed to dictate to other people how they "should" connect with God, is the height of all arrogance. That is what religion is. The arrogance to believe those in power have all the answers.
Well there was a time when Pilate thought he was in power. Jesus set him straight-
John 19
"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
11Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
12From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Hi GospelCompilation
You asked........
| Quote: | "How do we believe a person should listen to and obey the holy Spirit?"
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I suggest, that this is only “Christianese” to you.
What goes unsaid in this post, is the fact that you must be born again, or none of this
will apply to you.
Every Christian, should understand the statement.....
“True Spiritual growth doesn’t start until you start listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit!"
John 10:27
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 644
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "You asked: "How do we believe a person should listen to and obey the holy Spirit?" I suggest, that this is only 'Christianese' to you. What goes unsaid in this post, is the fact that you must be born again, or else none of this will apply to you." |
And we suggest that you failed to answer the question. In fact, you added to the confusion by saying that we must be born again in order for any of this to apply to us - without the benefit of explaining how a person (in your opinion) is born again.
That phrase is, again, nothing more than Christianese. It won't mean anything to a non-believer, and we've discovered that it is largely a nonsensical saying to most believers, as well. We throw these phrases around because it makes us look important, like we know something special, when we very often have no idea what they mean, either.
If you can't answer a legitimate question, friend, then don't stoop to insulting the intelligence of the one who challenged you. We have no problem answering the question; but then again, we don't base our beliefs on useless stupidstitions and vain mythconceptions.
We not only accept challenges to our beliefs, but we even welcome them, knowing that challenges make us stronger - especially when those challenges prove us wrong. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Hello again GospelCompilation
You said......
| Quote: | “And we suggest that you failed to answer the question. In fact, you added to the confusion by saying that we must be born again in order for any of this to apply to us - without the benefit of explaining how a person (in your opinion) is born again.”
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First of all, the statement about being born again, in neither my opinion, nor “Christianese”; They are the words of Jesus.......
John 3:3
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
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When you say “we”, you are probably talking about you and your SDA buddies;
And as I said before, I wouldn’t expect a SDA to understand any of this.
1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.”
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As for “how to be born again”;
I have another post on this site, called “Life’s most important question”, that will clearly answer that question.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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GospelCompilation
You said:
| Quote: | | That phrase is, again, nothing more than Christianese. It won't mean anything to a non-believer, |
The natural man doesn't understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. The man who isn't born again cannot from the very start understand the things of God because man walks in darkness.
Matthew 17 we see a key to understanding and that is revelation. Jesus said to Peter, "Blessed are you for flesh and blood didn't reveal these things to you but My Heavenly Father did."
What we say to those who are spiritually blind is foolishness until the Lord opens the eyes of their hearts.
You are absolutely right. The unbeliever will not understand. But you and I aren't the revealer of salvation truth. God is.
Jesus said, "No man can come unto the Father unless I draw him"
Paul plants and Paul waters but it is the Lord that causes the seed to grow.
After one is saved or born again, that person has been given a certain amount of light from the Creator to walk in His path. The Scriptures and prayer also enhance that walk but the ultimate key is to seek to be in the presence of God daily and listen to the rema of God.
BigApe keep up the good work brother.
JB |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 644
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| BigApe wrote: | | "When you say 'we,' you are probably talking about you and your SDA buddies." |
Since we don't have any SDA buddies, we're not sure who you are accusing us of associating with. But when we use the word we, we mean we - as in, "my wife and I." We work together as a team on this forum. We, that is, my wife and I, always post together (unless I, as the typist) indicate that I am answering alone (which I sometimes do).
BUT, regardless of your groundless accusations against us, you still haven't answered the question. Dancing, dancing, always dancing around the fact that you can speak Christianese, but are incapable of answering the very simplest of questions.
| JB wrote: | | "The natural man doesn't understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned." |
We're sorry, JB, but we see this as nothing more than a lame excuse to be irresponsible with the gospel. God is not the author of confusion, and when we confuse a nonbeliever with our "Christianese," we are not doing the work of God. In all our years of witnessing, we've never had a nonbeliever say to us, "Duh, what do you mean by that?" because we are able to articulate the gospel without using vague, archaic words that have no practical meaning to a normal human being.
| JB wrote: | | "What we say to those who are spiritually blind is foolishness until the Lord opens the eyes of their hearts." |
Again, we see this as a lame excuse to be irresponsible with the gospel, because what we've been saying to nonbelievers for years about Jesus Christ has never seemed like "foolishness" to them. Nonbelievers have always understood our speech, because we haven't relied on old, antiquated, empty words and traditional phrases that don't mean anything.
And we don't think it's right to rely on Paul's statement to excuse the fact that we are lousy witnesses, unable to say what we mean and incapable of meaning what we say when it comes to sharing the gospel with nonbelievers. I'm sorry, but we don't use Scripture to excuse our failings.
| JB wrote: | | "You are absolutely right. The unbeliever will not understand. But you and I aren't the revealer of salvation truth. God is." |
While there is a little bit of truth in what you are saying, the fact remains that you and I are the revealer of salvation truth; because, the fact is, no one will ever hear salvation truth unless they hear it from us. We are God's witnesses, and you know that. Furthermore, the nonbeliever will understand, if we present the message properly. Again, the burden is on us. And if we fail to present the message clearly, it is our fault... not God's.
So once again, we do not resort to using Scripture in order to excuse our inability to properly witness to nonbelievers about Christ. If we don't know how to preach the gospel in a way that everyone can understand, then we'd best find something else to do, because we will end up doing more harm than good.
| JB wrote: | | "The ultimate key is to seek to be in the presence of God daily and listen to the rema of God." |
Here's a good example: If we tell a nonbeliever (or even a believer, for that matter) to seek to be in the presence of God daily, how are they supposed to do that?!?" We speak things we don't even understand, and expect others to benefit from it.
And do you even have the slightest idea what the Greek word rhema means, and how it should be properly used? And, more than that, why on earth would any intelligent person on this planet use an ancient Greek word to describe something to a normal, everyday American living in the 21st century?
That is the epitome of foolishness! |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 644
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| BigApe wrote: | | "As for how to be born again; I have another post on this site, called 'Life’s most important question,' that will clearly answer that question." |
We've read it. It doesn't. In fact, we shook our heads in embarrassment when we read the little prayer you gave at the end, saying, "Dear Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I believe that you died and rose again, to save me; please save me now."
You didn't even specify to the poor, fictitious sinner what Jesus saved them from, unless you mean He saved them from hell. And, let us just say, if the only reason a nonbeliever chooses to believe in Jesus is so they can avoid a pagan hell, then you've done nothing more than turn that nonbeliever into the worst form of legalism - which is what this thread supposes to address.
So, no, your post entitled "Life's Most Important Question" did not explain at all what you mean when you use Jesus' words, "born again". Sometimes I wonder [notice, I said I and not we] if you're trying to turn people into disciples of bigape... or if you are trying to turn them into disciples of Christ... because there's a huge difference between the two. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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GospelCompilation,
| Quote: | | We're sorry, JB, but we see this as nothing more than a lame excuse to be irresponsible with the gospel. God is not the author of confusion, and when we confuse a nonbeliever with our "Christianese," we are not doing the work of God. |
Jesus was the first one to say, you must be born again. Not Me! Nicodemus walked away scratching his head. My friend, revelations isn't a man to man event.
I agree that we need to articulate our Gospel in a clear manner but I also reiterate that God does the revealing.
| Quote: | | You said: Again, we see this as a lame excuse to be irresponsible with the gospel, because what we've been saying to nonbelievers for years about Jesus Christ has never seemed like "foolishness" to them. Nonbelievers have always understood our speech, because we haven't relied on old, antiquated, empty words and traditional phrases that don't mean anything. |
With out a doubt we need to share our faith in a way that is most understandable. But again God does the revealing of truth.
You said: | Quote: | | While there is a little bit of truth in what you are saying, the fact remains that you and I are the revealer of salvation truth; because, the fact is, no one will ever hear salvation truth unless they hear it from us. We are God's witnesses, and you know that. Furthermore, the nonbeliever will understand, if we present the message properly. Again, the burden is on us. And if we fail to present the message clearly, it is our fault... not God's. |
We are the light of the world with out a doubt. But God is the one that grants the faith and the repentance.
There are many people out there that you can clearly proclaim the Gospel to and they flat our reject it.
I said:
| Quote: | | "The ultimate key is to seek to be in the presence of God daily and listen to the rema of God." |
You said:
| Quote: | | Here's a good example: If we tell a nonbeliever (or even a believer, for that matter) to seek to be in the presence of God daily, how are they supposed to do that?!?" We speak things we don't even understand, and expect others to benefit from it. |
First: I didn't say that to an every day person or did I? I thought that statement was directed at you.
My friend it is only in the Power of the Holy Spirit that we can be a true light.
You Asked: | Quote: | | And do you even have the slightest idea what the Greek word rhema means, and how it should be properly used? And, more than that, why on earth would any intelligent person on this planet use an ancient Greek word to describe something to a normal, everyday American living in the 21st century? |
| Quote: | | That is the epitome of foolishness! |
My friend,I see why your theology is broken now. You are not in right relationship with Christ. The Christ you believe in is just a man. The Christ of the Gospel is the incarnate God. And Yes I have a very good idea what rema means but I am not sure that you do.
In the last days there will be those who have a form of godliness but God is far from them. My friend I am sharing the Gospel with you now.
Jesus, (Emmanuel)or God with us died for your sins and His blood is offered to you for the atoning of your sins.
GC you are a nice guy with a great heart but you believe the wrong Gospel. I still haven't quite digested your idea that the Blood of Christ might not have been necessary.
The Gospel that you preach is much different than the Gospel I preach and by the way I share my faith quite clearly every chance I get. Some plant some water.
JB |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: |
My friend,I see why your theology is broken now. You are not in right relationship with Christ. The Christ you believe in is just a man. The Christ of the Gospel is the incarnate God. And Yes I have a very good idea what rema means but I am not sure that you do.
JB |
Yeah, I caught that too.
Jesus is the "key" to the kingdom.
Without Him, you are gonna wander around the desert a very long time my friend.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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