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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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 Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | GospelCompilation wrote: | | We agree, Surfer... it seems like God is going back and forth, back and forth... as if He can't make us His mind. He seems to have allowed Noah to eat swine... |
NO...Noah NEVER ate swine.
Noah knew which were the clean animals, and which were the UnClean animals.
Genesis 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that [are] not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. |
These verses do NOT establish ANYTHING about what noah ate, either before the flood, or after. We know that before the flood God had ONLY ordained eating herbs, so Noah did not eat ANY flesh before the flood...therefore the Clean vrs Unclean had to be in reference to something OTHER than diet ... (perhaps sacrifices? Abel offered the firstlings of his flock. Presumably the flock was for wool.)
We also know Noah was permitted to eat swine after the flood:
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
The only prohibition then was eating blood, as found in verse 4 of that text. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Dartman wrote: | We also know Noah was permitted to eat swine after the flood:
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Show me a Bible verse which states that Please.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Dartman wrote: | We also know Noah was permitted to eat swine after the flood:
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Show me a Bible verse which states that Please. |
I believe he did when he offered this in the last post.
| Dartman wrote: |
We also know Noah was permitted to eat swine after the flood:
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
The only prohibition then was eating blood, as found in verse 4 of that text. |
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Dartman wrote: | We also know Noah was permitted to eat swine after the flood:
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Show me a Bible verse which states that Please. |
Gen 9:3-4
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.KJV
Gen 9:2-4
3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it (from New International Version)
Gen 9:3-4
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be food for you. As the green herb have I given you all.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, (which is) the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. ASV |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 646
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Excellent points, one and all.
Obviously, Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean meat (and since Moses wrote Genesis for the Jews who were consigned to eating only clean meat, we can assume he meant clean and unclean dietary animals).
And yet, the verse seems clear that, just as God gave every green herb for Noah to eat before the flood, so did He give him every living creature to eat after the flood.
These are both statements from Scripture. They both seem crystal clear. So, now it appears that we have to all judge for ourselves what the two verses together mean.
As for me and my house, we will continue err on the side of caution. We believe God separated clean from unclean meats for our benefit, so that we might be healthy and strong and clear-minded, free from the many physical maladies that appears to plague those who stray from the Kosher diet.
But we sure won't judge anyone who chooses to enjoy their freedom in Christ and eat whatever they desire.
We've learned from Scripture that there are things in life that may not necessarily be good for us, but they aren't necessarily sins either. This is probably one of those cases.
Thank you, Dartman. Thank you, Surfer. This was a truly stimulating conversation! |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3320
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| GC wrote: | | We've learned from Scripture that there are things in life that may not necessarily be good for us, but they aren't necessarily sins either. This is probably one of those cases. |
Good point.
1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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I do not believe God is as wish-washy as some of you people think.
God does not make mistakes...as some of you think.
When God makes a statement, it stands.....
Pslams 111:7 The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all his commandments [are] sure.
111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness.
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.
Romans 6:16 says..... 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?
Adam & Eve knew this for a fact.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | I do not believe God is as wish-washy as some of you people think.
God does not make mistakes...as some of you think.
When God makes a statement, it stands.....
Pslams 111:7 The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all his commandments [are] sure.
111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness.
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.
Romans 6:16 says..... 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?
Adam & Eve knew this for a fact. |
No one is saying God is wishy-washy or mistaken ..... unless you are.
I am looking at what the scripture says, and allowing scripture to form my thinking, rather than making scripture CONFORM to MY thinking. Scripture says God changed law. That is His right! We need to learn from this information, not judge God based on OUR values. We are the clay, he is the potter.
One very profound result of God's change in Laws, as I see it, is Man is without excuse! Man can not justifiably say to God, "it was your system that was at fault....if you would have just set things up differently I would have been righteous".
God established law in the Garden of Eden, VERY simple from what we know, yet mankind failed. God then changed the rules, sent mankind from the garden and cursed the planet. 1600 years or so later the RACE of mankind had almost totally failed, but a few succeeded, which proved success was POSSIBLE.
God did a thorough wash/rinse cycle and started over with a very damp planet, very few passengers on the ark and NEW rules.
Mankind failed to follow the simple instructions to 'fill the earth' and God this time changed some languages and sent them into the whole earth to continue His plan.
During the Patriarchal age a few succeeded again. God then made a NEW covenant with the nation of Israel. A Theocracy. A very visible nation with very peculiar laws and a unique God. A few succeeded again, but most failed.
God then established the Church, under His only begotten son. Jesus said "many are called, but few are chosen". The same ratio. Enough succeed to prove it is possible under THIS system also.
At the 2nd coming of Jesus, yet ANOTHER system will be established. With Jesus as king of the planet, and the immortal righteous as co-rulers with him! The mortal survivors of the 2nd coming will have yet another NEW Law! And, surprise - surprise, there will be many that still fail.
God has used several different systems in the past, with different details in the laws pertinent to that system, and the ratio stays the same ... few succeed.
BUT, the fact that some have succeeded proves that the system works - MAN fails!
I am not sure why it is so disturbing to you that God changes His Laws, as long as none of those changes reflect a change in His values! The trivial issue of days, food, ceremonies and liturgy should not be so upsetting! Look at the way Jesus dealt with the Sabbath. The Jews were SHOCKED at his behavior regarding the Sabbath! Jesus said the Sabbath was for man, not man for the Sabbath! Did that mean the Israelites should have disobeyed God regarding ANY of the Laws??
NO!
But, it certainly should help us understand that a CHANGE in this kind of Law does NOT reflect any shift in God's character. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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The original !0 Commandments are in Heaven, right now.
The Apostle John, saw the Ark, in which they are kept in.
Jesus Christ, as High Priest (Hebrews 8 & 9), is using the Commandments to see who measures up to God's Satndard of Righteousness.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | The original !0 Commandments are in Heaven, right now.
The Apostle John, saw the Ark, in which they are kept in.
Jesus Christ, as High Priest (Hebrews 8 & 9), is using the Commandments to see who measures up to God's Satndard of Righteousness.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? |
I am willing to bet a year's salary that Silver was the one kid in school would shout out, "BUT WE ALREADY DID THAT", whenever the teacher would accidently give out the same homework assignment twice.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | The original !0 Commandments are in Heaven, right now.
The Apostle John, saw the Ark, in which they are kept in.
Jesus Christ, as High Priest (Hebrews 8 & 9), is using the Commandments to see who measures up to God's Satndard of Righteousness.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? |
I am willing to bet a year's salary that Silver was the one kid in school would shout out, "BUT WE ALREADY DID THAT", whenever the teacher would accidently give out the same homework assignment twice.
:roll: |
You NEVER get tired of being wrong ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | The original !0 Commandments are in Heaven, right now.
The Apostle John, saw the Ark, in which they are kept in.
Jesus Christ, as High Priest (Hebrews 8 & 9), is using the Commandments to see who measures up to God's Satndard of Righteousness.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? |
I am willing to bet a year's salary that Silver was the one kid in school would shout out, "BUT WE ALREADY DID THAT", whenever the teacher would accidently give out the same homework assignment twice.
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You NEVER get tired of being wrong ? |
Am I wrong?? You mean you didn't tell the teacher? OOOOOO.......You weren't being honest!!!
Look Silver, you are obviously a very intelligent person and very devoted to God. I actually enjoy your posts except for one thing. No matter what the topic, you always come down to the issue of the saturday sabbath.
So let me ask you point blank now.
Will those who work on the saturday sabbath be condemned to hell?
Please don't bombard me with scripture. Just talk to me. Will people who work on saturday lose their salvation??
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: |
Am I wrong?? You mean you didn't tell the teacher? OOOOOO.......You weren't being honest!!! |
Believe it or not, I was a very shy kid, who was small and got picked on a lot.
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Look Silver, you are obviously a very intelligent person and very devoted to God. I actually enjoy your posts except for one thing. No matter what the topic, you always come down to the issue of the saturday sabbath. |
Yeah, I know.
You see, I was raised from 6 months old to go to church on Sunday.
And it wasn't until I was 28 years old I found out what the Bible really taught on the subject.
| Quote: |
So let me ask you point blank now.
Will those who work on the saturday sabbath be condemned to hell? |
Let me just says this.
the 4th commandment is just as valid to God, as "Thou shalt not steal"....Or, Bear false witness (Lying)....or killing....or, Coveting.
I have no idea why God places such a value on the 7th day sabbath, and personally, I don't really care why.
He must have His reasons.
BUT, I do know it is a TEST of Faith.
God says it is a 'sign' of loyalty.
I suppose this means that it is to see if a person will obey God, even though they don't understand why.
Kind of like Abraham's test.
He was told to kill his only son.
The son, that God promised him the would be the leader of a great nation.
Now, you know that Abraham must have thought that God was making some BIG mistake here.
After all, HE promised Abraham this kid...them to tell him, to kill him ????
YET, because of that test, which he passed, because Abraham had faith that God knew best, even if he didn't understand what was going on.
God named Abrahm the 'father of the faithfull'.
| Quote: |
Please don't bombard me with scripture. Just talk to me. Will people who work on saturday lose their salvation?? |
It depends on what you do.
If you're a Doctor, or nurse.....NO !
If you work at a tire shop, grocery store, gas station, Plastics manufacturing plant (like I do).....mow your lawn......ect....ect...ect....YES !
Notice what the 4th commandment says:
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
God made ONLY 1 certain day, Holy.
He asks that a person stops doing the mundane things of life, and focus on HIM totally, and take time to be grateful for all the blessings of Life, that you are blessed with.
God says to call the sabbath a 'delight' (Isaiah 58:13,14).
It is a day to enjoy not having to be in the 'rat race' of life.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
There are the other 6 days of the week, in which to do almost everything that needs to be done....isn't that enough ?
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: A perfect time for family and friends to relax and talk over God's blessings and future hopes of heaven.
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. The rest spoken here is not one of totally inactivity.
After all, if HE rested absolutely and totally the whole universe would be in chaos in minutes.....the sun would lose its orbit and probably go out like a light......life on earth would cease to exist as God is the source of all life......ect....ect....ect....
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Where do you find this commandment in the New Testament, SS?
You have quoted a lot of verses ALL of us would agree with....as long as they are applied where they are stated....IN the Mosaic Law.
SS said:
| Quote: | The original !0 Commandments are in Heaven, right now.
The Apostle John, saw the Ark, in which they are kept in.
Jesus Christ, as High Priest (Hebrews 8 & 9), is using the Commandments to see who measures up to God's Satndard of Righteousness.
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Where do you find the verses that establish these bizarre claims??
Sheesh.....a lot of claims, no relevant verses! |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Dartman wrote: | Where do you find the verses that establish these bizarre claims??
Sheesh.....a lot of claims, no relevant verses! |
They are only bizarre claims ...UNTIL you study the whole Bible, (Both OT, as well as NT).
No ONe can understand the NT until the foundation has been laid, thru the study of the OT.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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