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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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 Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! Too many posts to respond to one at a time, so I am going to vary from the standard "Quote - Response" format.
Jesus said:
Matt 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill .
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
When Jesus said: "It is finished" and the veil in the temple was torn by God, the Mosaic Law was fulfilled and obsolete. When the Holy Spirit filled the Apostles on the day of Pentecost, the New Testament was ushered in. Paul referred to this situation in Rom 7:9:
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Jesus fulfilled the Law. That was one of the primary accomplishments of his mortal life, as Daniel was told 5 centuries before Jesus lived, (Dan 9:21-27), and Moses prophesied roughly 15 centuries earlier (Acts 3:22, Deut 18:15). Jesus established NEW Law, and sent the comforter to remind the apostles of those commandments God had given to Jesus, (John 14:15-31).
NOTICE! Jesus did NOT tell the apostles, "just check the 10 commandments"....or, "remember the Mosaic Law", he told them the comforter would cause them to remember those sayings of Jesus. These were New Testament in contrast to the Old.
Yes, Jesus was still under the Mosaic Law until his death, and rightly taught the Jews to keep THAT Law........ UNTIL it was done away!
He told the Samaritan woman, in John 4 that "salvation IS of the Jews", but then told her " the hour is COMING when Jerusalem will NOT be the place to worship the Father". He also said: " the hour is coming and NOW IS when the true believer must worship in spirit and truth".
Yes, the Jews rejected God, Jesus and the prophets, in that they felt justified to pick and choose WHICH laws to obey, and which laws to "reinterpret". So, as John the Baptist had warned them, "the axe is laid at the root of the tree"...or, as Paul later said in Rom 11, the natural branches were broken off, and the wild olive branches were grafted in. They were not grafted in to the Law, but to the promises. Paul made clear distinction between those two concepts in Gal 3:17.
The Mosaic Law was also a new law!
Deut 5 shows that the entire Mosaic Law, specifically the 10 commandments, had NOT been given to "the fathers", but was a NEW COVENANT given on Mt. Horeb to the nation of Israel. There is ZERO evidence of the Sabbath being a Law prior to this, and there is a wealth of evidence that the ONLY Sabbath remaining for the Christian is the "Rest" established by Jesus at his 2nd coming! (Heb 4).
So, we see that God has the right to change Law. And, we see that God has the right to demand obedience to whatever Law He has ordained for that era. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 646
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dartman wrote: | | "So, we see that God has the right to change [His] Law." |
Of course God has the right to change His law. The question is, would He?
Do we have any evidence in Scripture that demonstrates God changing His law? Or, changing the way He prescribed us to do something (such as: at first He said to do it this way, and then later He said to do it that way)?
Do we have any evidence of Him doing anything like that? |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | Dartman wrote: | | "So, we see that God has the right to change [His] Law." |
Of course God has the right to change His law. The question is, would He?
Do we have any evidence in Scripture that demonstrates God changing His law? Or, changing the way He prescribed us to do something (such as: at first He said to do it this way, and then later He said to do it that way)?
Do we have any evidence of Him doing anything like that? |
The quick answer is: YES!!
A classic example of this is the following changes in law:
Genesis 1:29-30 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb .. to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Deuteronomy 14:3-21 Thou shalt not eat any ...
Thou shalt eat .....
Acts 10:12-15 .. What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
As I am sure you know well, these are just a few verses among many on this topic, but they cut to the meat of the issue.....no pun intended.
God commanded Moses to allow divorce in very specific cases, (Matt 19:3-9), but God commanded Jesus to prohibit divorce in all cases, Mark 10:10)
God allowed violence in the Mosaic Law, and strictly prohibits ALL violence in the NT.
God required Israel to worship in Jerusalem during the Mosaic Law, and now we have the liberty to worship anywhere, in the Millennium the nations will be required to go to Jerusalem once a year to worship, (Zech 14)
I am out of time, but not out of examples. I hope this short list helps though. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 646
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Very well argued, Dartman. We will carefully consider everything you've presented. Thank you! |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | Dartman wrote: | | "So, we see that God has the right to change [His] Law." |
Of course God has the right to change His law. The question is, would He?
Do we have any evidence in Scripture that demonstrates God changing His law? Or, changing the way He prescribed us to do something (such as: at first He said to do it this way, and then later He said to do it that way)?
Do we have any evidence of Him doing anything like that? |
| Dartman wrote: |
The quick answer is: YES!!
A classic example of this is the following changes in law:
Genesis 1:29-30 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb .. to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Deuteronomy 14:3-21 Thou shalt not eat any ...
Thou shalt eat .....
Acts 10:12-15 .. What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
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Wait a minute there, friend !
Acts 10 .....is NOT talking about food.
Read on........
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Silver Surfer Said:
| Quote: | Wait a minute there, friend !
Acts 10 .....is NOT talking about food.
Read on........
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. |
Acts 10 ...IS talking about food,
and eating,
and clean vrs unclean.
It is also talking about the gospel going to the gentiles.
What must be determined is, is the vision about eating clean AND unclean animals, JUST a symbol of gentiles now being acceptable, OR is the vision ALSO teaching a change in dietary law.
Since we have so many other NT verses illustrating precisely this same change in Dietary law, it is fair to conclude the statements about food in Acts 10 can be taken literally also.
See Acts 15:22-29, Rom 14, Col 2:12-17, 1 Tim 4:1-5, 1 Cor 10:25-28. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 646
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Surfer wrote: | | "Acts 10 is NOT talking about food. |
We agree, Surfer. Acts 10 is often taken out of context, as is Paul's advice about meat sacrificed to idols in I Corinthians. Gentile believers take these passages out of context in order to justify their appetite for animal blood and unclean meat.
But Dartman did make an excellent argument with Noah, when God told him he could eat everything that walked on the earth, just as he could eat every seed-bearing plant on the earth. No matter how we cut it... that's a pretty strong argument... because Noah came before the Mosaic law. So, until we find a reasonable answer as to why God gave Noah that instruction... Dartman has proven his point.
Did he misuse Acts 10? Of course. Most Gentile believers do. But did he still prove his point? Absolutely, he did. And we're not willing to be so arrogant that we cannot admit that. Dartman stumped us. And not many people can boast of that.
So, congratulations are in order. His overall reasoning was excellent, and it came directly from Scripture. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Dartman wrote: |
Since we have so many other NT verses illustrating precisely this same change in Dietary law, it is fair to conclude the statements about food in Acts 10 can be taken literally also.
See Acts 15:22-29, Rom 14, Col 2:12-17, 1 Tim 4:1-5, 1 Cor 10:25-28. |
Christ's 2nd coming shows that the dietary laws were still in effect......
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 646
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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We agree, Surfer... it seems like God is going back and forth, back and forth... as if He can't make us His mind. He seems to have allowed Noah to eat swine... then He forbid the Jews from eating it... then He seems to have allowed Gentiles to eat swine... but then He won't allow eating it in the New Earth...
...it all seems quite confusing. And that's why we focus on the clear passages in Scripture over a few vague verses taken from one side of a two-sided conversation. We feel there must have been a very good reason why God prescribed the Jews not to eat unclean meat.
Just like we feel there's a very good reason why the very first thing a doctor does today is take a patient off unclean food the moment certain health issues arise.
It should also be noted that Peter never ate anything from the sheet described in Acts 10. He maintained his Scriptural standards, even though he accepted God's counsel concerning Gentile believers. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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GospelCompilation said.........
“We agree, Surfer”
Surprise, Surprise!
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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In Deut 14, in the context of explaining the dietary laws to Israel, Moses explained WHY God gave them this law:
Deut 14:2 for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
This concept is the only reason behind the laws I have found.
I have HEARD from many sources, other than the Bible, these laws were for health reasons, but I don't see that in the text.
It is foolish to ascribe to the Supreme Being, who has the absolute right to establish law and to do away with law, any weakness for changing those laws. Our finite ability to judge these matters should make us much more submissive to His authority. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 646
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Moses wrote: | | "Deuteronomy 14:2: For you are a holy people unto Yahweh your God, and Yahweh has chosen you to be a peculiar people for Himself, above all the nations upon the earth." |
But, isn't that what we are all supposed to be? Aren't we all a holy people unto Yahweh our God, and hasn't He chosen us all to be a peculiar people for Himself, above all the nations of the world?
And if the above is true, then it appears as if Gentile believers now fall under the same auspices as the Jews. Almost like we were grafted onto an olive tree that already existed... which means we will draw our sustenance in the same manner as the tree... and that the same rules of growth and production will apply to us that applied to the tree.
I mean, that only makes sense. At least, to us.
But we would like to hear more of your thoughts on the matter, Dartman.
| Dartman wrote: | | "I have HEARD from many sources, other than the Bible, these laws were for health reasons, but I don't see that in the text." |
My wife and I have always looked at it this way: if the Jews ate healthier and lived better lives (and of course, lived longer, as well) than their blood-gorging, unclean neighbors, then that would have served as a great testimony to the God they served. It would have been, like, God was so concerned about His people that He actually told them which meats to eat, so that they would be physically and mentally blessed by trusting and obeying Him.
We don't think God would have asked them to eat healthy just so they would look weird in the eyes of the world. We've grown to understand that God physically blesses people when they obey His Word: and the physical blessing of proper diet is good health, long life, and an even higher quality of life.
But anyway... keep sharing your thoughts. This is proving to be a great challenge to our understanding, and we look forward to even greater challenge. Thank you! |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | We've grown to understand that God physically blesses people when they obey His Word: and the physical blessing of proper diet is good health, long life, and an even higher quality of life. |
Your comment raised my curiosity (thank you  ) about life expectancy.
The CIA World FactBook 2008 ranks the life expectancy in Israel as #13 (out of 223). Andorra (predominantly Roman Catholic) is ranked #1; Japan (84% Shinto and Buddhist, 0.7% Christian) is ranked #3; the United States is ranked #47. Significance in regard to your comment?
Link
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal
Last edited by Mattathias on Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:07 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | Moses wrote: | | "Deuteronomy 14:2: For you are a holy people unto Yahweh your God, and Yahweh has chosen you to be a peculiar people for Himself, above all the nations upon the earth." |
But, isn't that what we are all supposed to be? Aren't we all a holy people unto Yahweh our God, and hasn't He chosen us all to be a peculiar people for Himself, above all the nations of the world?
And if the above is true, then it appears as if Gentile believers now fall under the same auspices as the Jews. Almost like we were grafted onto an olive tree that already existed... which means we will draw our sustenance in the same manner as the tree... and that the same rules of growth and production will apply to us that applied to the tree.
I mean, that only makes sense. At least, to us.
But we would like to hear more of your thoughts on the matter, Dartman.
| Dartman wrote: | | "I have HEARD from many sources, other than the Bible, these laws were for health reasons, but I don't see that in the text." |
My wife and I have always looked at it this way: if the Jews ate healthier and lived better lives (and of course, lived longer, as well) than their blood-gorging, unclean neighbors, then that would have served as a great testimony to the God they served. It would have been, like, God was so concerned about His people that He actually told them which meats to eat, so that they would be physically and mentally blessed by trusting and obeying Him.
We don't think God would have asked them to eat healthy just so they would look weird in the eyes of the world. We've grown to understand that God physically blesses people when they obey His Word: and the physical blessing of proper diet is good health, long life, and an even higher quality of life.
But anyway... keep sharing your thoughts. This is proving to be a great challenge to our understanding, and we look forward to even greater challenge. Thank you! |
Yes, we in the NT era are also to be a Peculiar People, and the New Testament law defines how that works. Without a lengthy discourse on the specifics, we obey God's law and that behavior sets us apart from our neighbors. This is the principle I see in Deut. 14.
I do NOT see any verses that would support ANY other explanation for God's change in laws. As we have already discussed, there is a great difference from one law to the next regarding diet, according to the Bible. I do NOT believe God modified the metabolism with each change. It is pure speculation to conclude there are health benefits to any of the diets God has defined. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | We agree, Surfer... it seems like God is going back and forth, back and forth... as if He can't make us His mind. He seems to have allowed Noah to eat swine... |
NO...Noah NEVER ate swine.
Noah knew which were the clean animals, and which were the UnClean animals.
Genesis 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that [are] not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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