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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: The hidden danger of legalism |
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Sunday worship services, is just one method of Legalism.
It is placing man's opinions, over what God has said to do.
Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.
15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 152
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:11 am Post subject: Re: The hidden danger of legalism |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | Sunday worship services, is just one method of Legalism.
It is placing man's opinions, over what God has said to do.
Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.
15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. |
Silver,
I must disagree on this. Sunday worship service is just like everyday worship. It is time with God and family and friends in Christ. Sunday does not have to be the day you worship God in fact it should be everyday of your life you take time out to thank, worship, give him praise. It can become Legalism if you allow it to be. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 644
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Surfer wrote: | | "Sunday worship services, is just one method of Legalism." |
Yes, and so is Sabbath worship services, if one observes it in order to secure their salvation with God. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | Surfer wrote: | | "Sunday worship services, is just one method of Legalism." |
Yes, and so is Sabbath worship services, if one observes it in order to secure their salvation with God. |
I gather, from the discussions in this forum, that 'Legalism' means:
"A belief that obedience to the law will EARN eternal life"?
I am a little at a loss, since 'Legalism' is not found/defined in the Bible. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Dartman
You asked......
| Quote: | “I gather, from the discussions in this forum, that 'Legalism' means:
"A belief that obedience to the law will EARN eternal life"?
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No it isn’t; (This teaching, is called “works for salvation”, and sends people to hell.)
Legalism, are man made rules, that are taught as if they were doctrine;
| Quote: | Mark 7:7
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.”
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You also said.....
| Quote: | “I am a little at a loss, since 'Legalism' is not found/defined in the Bible.”
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Although you won’t find the word “Legalism” in the Bible, it does warn us about this false teaching..
The entire epistle of Galatians, is dedicated to both kinds of Legalism.
(1) Rules sat down by people, in order to be considered obedient to God.
&
(2) Rules sat down by people, that they say are necessary for salvation.
----------------
Both forms of this false teaching, were being taught in Galatia.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5286
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Silver Surfer, you have just done it again!  You have just Hijacked this thread, & turned it into another one off your Saturday/ Sunday things. I'm getting very tired of this!
| SS wrote: | | Sunday worship services, is just one method of Legalism. |
Please quit doing this!
Nobby
_________________
Much Love Nobby
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 644
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| BigApe wrote: | | "Legalism, are man made rules, that are taught as if they were doctrine." |
Actually, Dartman, legalism does not usually refer to man-made rules, but primarily focuses on God's law. The definition found in most commentaries and/or religious dictionaries goes something like this:
"Legalism refers to an over-emphasis on law or codes of conduct, usually emphasizing the letter of law over the Spirit. Legalism is usually leveled against any view that supports a Christian obeying God's Ten Commandments as more important than their faith in God's grace and mercy."
That's why Surfer can't truly be called a legalist, because he does preach God's grace and mercy. Unfortunately, he gets in trouble when he puts too much emphasis on God's law; thereby making it a yoke too heavy for others to bear. It's at that point that the messenger actually hurts the message. Some might say he suffers from the "broken record" syndrome.
But, legalism almost always refers to the practice of keeping God's law. It is a derogatory term used by those who don't want to keep the Ten Commandments against those who do want to keep the Ten Commandments, so that it makes them appear as if they are trying to earn their way to heaven.
Of course, nothing could be further from the truth.
And, while we agree with Nobby, that Surfer has once again hijacked another thread... the point is still valid: the Ten Commandments are (as far as we know of) still valid for believers in Christ. And, if BigApe's definition is true ("that Legalism are man made rules, that are taught as if they were doctrine"), then Sunday worship definitely falls under legalism, because it was instituted as a day of worship by men and not by God. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Bigape wrote:
| Quote: | Although you won’t find the word “Legalism” in the Bible, it does warn us about this false teaching..
The entire epistle of Galatians, is dedicated to both kinds of Legalism.
(1) Rules sat down by people, in order to be considered obedient to God.
&
(2) Rules sat down by people, that they say are necessary for salvation.
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Both forms of this false teaching, were being taught in Galatia |
What I read in Galatians is Paul reaffirming freedom from the Mosaic Law. Specifically, that law that came 'four hundred and thirty years after" the Abrahamic promises, (Gal 3:16,17). But Paul is NOT stating the Christian has NO law to follow, in fact he states in Gal 6:2 that we are to "...fulfill the LAW of Christ".
And in verse 16 that we are to "...walk according to this rule".
Perhaps the most compelling of all the "laws of Christ" is found in the 3rd chapter and verses 26-28, "as many of you as have been BAPTISED into Christ have put on Christ......and IF ye be Christ's THEN are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promises."
(Also see Matt 28:18-20 "..teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have COMMANDED you...") |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 296
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | BigApe wrote: | | "Legalism, are man made rules, that are taught as if they were doctrine." |
Actually, Dartman, legalism does not usually refer to man-made rules, but primarily focuses on God's law. The definition found in most commentaries and/or religious dictionaries goes something like this:
"Legalism refers to an over-emphasis on law or codes of conduct, usually emphasizing the letter of law over the Spirit. Legalism is usually leveled against any view that supports a Christian obeying God's Ten Commandments as more important than their faith in God's grace and mercy."
That's why Surfer can't truly be called a legalist, because he does preach God's grace and mercy. Unfortunately, he gets in trouble when he puts too much emphasis on God's law; thereby making it a yoke too heavy for others to bear. It's at that point that the messenger actually hurts the message. Some might say he suffers from the "broken record" syndrome.
But, legalism almost always refers to the practice of keeping God's law. It is a derogatory term used by those who don't want to keep the Ten Commandments against those who do want to keep the Ten Commandments, so that it makes them appear as if they are trying to earn their way to heaven.
Of course, nothing could be further from the truth.
And, while we agree with Nobby, that Surfer has once again hijacked another thread... the point is still valid: the Ten Commandments are (as far as we know of) still valid for believers in Christ. And, if BigApe's definition is true ("that Legalism are man made rules, that are taught as if they were doctrine"), then Sunday worship definitely falls under legalism, because it was instituted as a day of worship by men and not by God. |
Well, I agree with SOME of what you have said.
1) Yes, Sunday worship is man made. Saturday, as far as we can tell, is the actual day the sabbath was observed.
2) No one can earn eternal life. It is too big, you would have to do an infinite amount of works to earn infinite life.
3) Obedience to the law should NOT be emphasized OVER faith. According to the scriptures, they go hand in hand. Works without faith is dead works, faith without works is dead faith.
Here, though, is an area you seem to vary from my belief.
No, the Ten Commandments are NOT valid for believers in Christ. That is the main thrust of the book of Galatians, Col 2:14-16, (Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;...Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:)
As well as MANY other references in the NT that state the Mosaic Law was done away at the death of Jesus. We now are under the Law of Christ, or the New Testament. Jesus told the Apostles they were to teach all nations "whatsoever things I have commanded you".
For instance, we still have a commandment to continue assembling (Heb 10:25), but we now have the liberty of doing that on any day that works for us. Sunday happens to be most convenient. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Dartman wrote: | | GospelCompilation wrote: | | Surfer wrote: | | "Sunday worship services, is just one method of Legalism." |
Yes, and so is Sabbath worship services, if one observes it in order to secure their salvation with God. |
I gather, from the discussions in this forum, that 'Legalism' means:
"A belief that obedience to the law will EARN eternal life"? |
Yes. that is legalism.
There are 2 ways to look at obeying God's law.
#1.) Trying to earn God's favor, by obeying Him.
#2.) Keeping God's Law, because you love Him.
| Quote: |
I am a little at a loss, since 'Legalism' is not found/defined in the Bible. |
The religious leaders of Jesus Christ's day were legalists.
Jesus Christ was not...a legalist, even though HE admitted to keeping all God's commandments.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 644
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Dartman wrote: | | "No, the Ten Commandments are NOT valid for believers in Christ. That is the main thrust of Galatians and Colossians." |
We used to think that, as well. That is, until we started following the Berean example of interpreting Paul's writings through Scripture, instead of interpreting Scripture through the writings of Paul. When we did that, we found a much different picture.
That's when we discovered that Paul was combating an assertion by Jewish believers that Gentile believers must also be circumcised in order to be saved (the idea that all non-Jewish believers in Christ must become Jews in order to be considered Abraham's heirs). Paul spent enormous time and energy going through the Scriptures, trying to prove to the Jewish believers that Abraham actually inherited God's gift by faith - and thus (by extension), all men inherit it by faith.
Galatians and Colossians especially address this issue (that Gentiles must be circumcised, that is, they must become literal Jews, in order to be saved); but, two thousand years later, Christianity reads more into Paul's argument than actually existed - primarily because we don't understand the Jewish terminology or imagery that Paul employed in his letters. Plus, we have nearly two thousand years of Gentile believers misquoting Paul's letters (to "prove" their own ideas, of course), that it becomes especially difficult to separate Paul's intention from the intentions of those who misquote him.
That's why (in the verse you quoted) Paul used the phrase "the handwriting of ordinances." Believe me, Dartman, Paul would have never called the Ten Commandments a "handwriting" of "ordinances." Nor would he have ever suggested that the Ten Commandments were against us, or contrary to us. In his Jewish mind, that would have been sacrilege and perhaps even blasphemy.
So, once we understood the issue (salvation by the cutting of the foreskin, or "works of the flesh"), and what Paul was really addressing (that Gentile believers become heirs of salvation through the blood of Christ and not through the blood of Abraham), it helped us to interpret the rest of the New Testament, as well as the Gospels, more accurately. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Dartman wrote: | | No, the Ten Commandments are NOT valid for believers in Christ. |
Incredible !!!
A total rejection of the very words of Jesus Christ, Himself.
| Quote: |
That is the main thrust of the book of Galatians, Col 2:14-16, (Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;...Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:)
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No wonder God issued a warning about Paul's writings !
2 Peter 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Dartman
Remember I told you of the two kinds of Legalism, dealt with in Galatians;
(1) Rules sat down by people, in order to be considered obedient to God.
&
(2) Rules sat down by people, that they say are necessary for salvation.
Well in Galatians 1:6, you see the Lord using Paul, to deal the #2
| Quote: | Galatians 1:6
“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:”
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When they had believed the lies, about those extra-Biblical things that they were told, needed to be done, in order to be saved; (This was believing anther Gospel!)
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And later on in Galatians 3:1-2, the Lord uses Paul, to deal with the other kind of Legalism.......
| Quote: | Galatians 3:1-2
V.1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
V.2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
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Here Paul rebukes them, for listening to these liars, and believing them.
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Keep studying Dartman, and the Lord will answer all of your questions, "from His Word"!
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| bigape wrote: | Hi Dartman
Remember I told you of the two kinds of Legalism, dealt with in Galatians;
(1) Rules sat down by people, in order to be considered obedient to God.
&
(2) Rules sat down by people, that they say are necessary for salvation.
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And what about the 'rules' Jesus Christ set forth to gain eternal life ?
For example: 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life ?
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 644
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Surfer wrote: | | "And what about the 'rules' Jesus Christ set forth to gain eternal life?" |
Actually, Surfer, what you're encountering here is the mistaken notion that Gentile believers are not under Christ, but under Paul. Please, allow this brief historical explanation, and it might help you understand what you're up against.
ALL CHRISTIANS KEPT SABBATH HOLY
Up until the mid-1800's, Christians believed that Sabbath was binding, because it was contained in God's moral law - the Ten Commandments. In fact, they even tried to pass social laws which would enforce the Sabbath, even binding it on nonbelievers, as well. These laws were known as the Sunday Blue Laws.
Yes, that's right. Christians believed that Sunday was the Sabbath - the very Sabbath mentioned in the Ten Commandments - the very Sabbath that Jesus observed. And Christians were willing to pass social laws in order to enforce it's rigid observance.
NEW LIGHT FOR THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION
We do not believe the Protestant Reformation ended when Christians landed on American soil. We believe God continued bringing more and more truth from His Word, even after Christianity was free from the Catholic presence. Therefore, it was in the mid-1800's that God revealed the truth that Sabbath was actually Saturday, the seventh day of the week.
But since Christian leadership didn't want to change their day of worship, they chose to change their theology instead.
ANTI-SEMITISM MADE IT EASY
They started saying things like: "The Old Testament was done away with." Or, "That was only for the Jews." Or, "We are under the dispensation of grace now." They started pointing out a few vague verses in Paul's letters that seemed to "do away" with God's law (such as the ones quoted above).
So Christian leaders began to ignore context, exegesis, and history... just so they could keep Sunday holy... and especially to keep from looking stupid. After all, no leader wants to look like they had been doing something wrong, so it was easy to simply focus on "separation from the Jews." The idea that we keep Sunday holy because Sabbath was for them... and we're not them.
TODAY'S THEOLOGY - GENTILES ARE NOT UNDER CHRIST
The new philosophy today is that "Jesus spoke during the Jewish dispensation, and therefore only spoke to the Jews. Paul, on the other hand, was called by God to minister during the Gentile dispensation and to preach the gospel of grace, which doesn't require Gentiles to keep Sabbath." This is the teaching promoted today: that we, as Gentile believers, are under a different gospel than the one the Jews were under... so we're not bound by the things Jesus said, because Jesus was speaking to the Jews. These same Christian philosophers teach that God called Paul to speak to Gentile believers, and therefore only his words apply to us.
Of course, normal, everyday Christians don't know anything about this philosophical crap. But, they subliminally hear it in church on Sunday, and read it in their journals, and hear it on Christian radio, and see it repeated on these forums over and over again... to the point where they actually begin to believe the underlying principle.
DOING MORE HARM THAN GOOD
That's why we oppose your method of sharing truth, Surfer. We don't know any other way to say this, except bluntly: It doesn't appear that you understand exactly what you're fighting, so you are actually doing more harm than good (evidenced by the negative reaction you receive on this forum).
That's why we consistently counsel you to stop preaching the way you do, until you understand exactly what your opponents believe and why they believe it. Once you understand, you will be equipped to fight intelligently, and then your message will become more effective.
We hope this information helps to that end. |
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