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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | To the anti-gunners
The reality of it is, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". I know that it is an old cliche but it is true. If some one wants to take another persons life, they don't need a gun. Before the gun existed there was murder. Murder is a heart condition not a gun condition.
More people die every year in car accidents,drug related incidents and alcohol related events than by guns. Why do they not out law alcohol if it claims so many lives? Maybe we should outlaw Burger King and McDonalds also. Hey, where does the liberal stop?
JB |
Hey, this is a very good point!
In countries where they have gun control, they boast that murder by guns is waaaaaaayyyy down compared to the US. What they don't tell you is, murder by other methods........knives, etc, is way up.
If it is one's heart to murder, they will do it regardless of the weapon.
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | In countries where they have gun control, they boast that murder by guns is waaaaaaayyyy down compared to the US. What they don't tell you is, murder by other methods........knives, etc, is way up.
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11, you make some very good points. However, I am not convinced by this argument above. The fact that murder by knives may be up in countries where gun control laws apply proves very little. It is harder to kill many people in a short period of time with a knife than with a gun, especially an automatic weapon. It is the overall murder rate that is the bottom line.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Plotinus wrote: | | eleven wrote: | In countries where they have gun control, they boast that murder by guns is waaaaaaayyyy down compared to the US. What they don't tell you is, murder by other methods........knives, etc, is way up.
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11, you make some very good points. However, I am not convinced by this argument above. The fact that murder by knives may be up in countries where gun control laws apply proves very little. It is harder to kill many people in a short period of time with a knife than with a gun, especially an automatic weapon. It is the overall murder rate that is the bottom line. |
True. All I'm saying is, if a person is determined to kill you, they will find a way to do it.
Take away guns, they will use knives.
Take away guns and knives, they will use clubs.
I am totally against gun control, but completely for gun education. That's all I'm saying.
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | Hey, where does the liberal stop? |
An interesting argument JB. One point of terminology. Banning things is not liberalism. By definition, liberals believe in individual freedom.
The discussion started with the question "should Christians own guns." Let me return to this. I find it difficult to understand how one can square gun ownership with Matthew 5:38--42, in particular that we should turn the other cheek. Can someone explain all this to stupid ole me?
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Plotinus wrote: | | JB wrote: | | Hey, where does the liberal stop? |
An interesting argument JB. One point of terminology. Banning things is not liberalism. By definition, liberals believe in individual freedom.
The discussion started with the question "should Christians own guns." Let me return to this. I find it difficult to understand how one can square gun ownership with Matthew 5:38--42, in particular that we should turn the other cheek. Can someone explain all this to stupid ole me? |
Let me give it a try. 
If someone slaps you on the cheek, they may have just insulted you, or "offended" you, or tried to humiliate you, or just called you stupid, or may just be trying to wake you up regarding a certain believe you harbor as true. But slapping you on the cheek won't kill you. It may humiliate you, but it won't kill you. Turn the other cheek, have compassion for a hurting brother, challenge your own thinking, because it may be possible that they are right, and YOU are wrong.
However, if a group of thugs breaks down my front door, holds a knife on my daughter while the ransack my home, and proceed to sodomize my son, I can guarantee you, I will praise God for the US right to own a gun, then proceed to blow them away, praising His Name the entire time.
I am sick and tired of being a victim. I have been a victim all my life - Jesus never said we should do this, nor is it "holy" to be a victim.
God says, you reap what you sow. But this applies to everyone, not just me. If some son of satan threatens me or my family then he will reap exactly what he sows.
How can you argue with that?
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Plotinus,
Turning the other cheek. When you are persecuted for His name sake you should face it with joy. When you are walking down the street and are assaulted for no reason at all, you have every right to defend yourself.
As a Father and a Husband, I would defend my family in a situation such as that with out question. If my family are being persecuted for the sake of the Gospel, I must let them go through it.
JB |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Plontius,
By the way, I don't know a liberal that really stands for personal freedom. Most of them are over protectionists. They take from hard working business people and give it to lazy people. That isn't freedom. That is socialism.
JB |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Plotinus,
Turning the other cheek. When you are persecuted for His name sake you should face it with joy. When you are walking down the street and are assaulted for no reason at all, you have every right to defend yourself.
As a Father and a Husband, I would defend my family in a situation such as that with out question. If my family are being persecuted for the sake of the Gospel, I must let them go through it.
JB |
Amen!!!
JB has given yet another example of "turning the other cheek"-
| JB wrote: |
If my family are being persecuted for the sake of the Gospel, I must let them go through it. |
Not easy, but always right.
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | If someone slaps you on the cheek, they may have just insulted you, or "offended" you, or tried to humiliate you, or just called you stupid, or may just be trying to wake you up regarding a certain believe you harbor as true. But slapping you on the cheek won't kill you. It may humiliate you, but it won't kill you. Turn the other cheek, have compassion for a hurting brother, challenge your own thinking, because it may be possible that they are right, and YOU are wrong.
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So I guess you are saying that these verses in Matthew should be interpreted narrowly--as responses to insults and not extreme violence. But with so much of Jesus' ministry given in the form of allegory and example, I think it is also possible to interpret these verses broadly.
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However, if a group of thugs breaks down my front door, holds a knife on my daughter while the ransack my home, and proceed to sodomize my son, I can guarantee you, I will praise God for the US right to own a gun, then proceed to blow them away, praising His Name the entire time.
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That may be you but it doesn't sound like me. I'm not saying I might not be scared enough to kill someone. But if I did, I doubt that I would feel righteous about it. Sick, shaken, traumatised, soiled, confused, fearful. But not righteous. This is a garden path argument, and I take a dim view of these. If I actually managed to get a gun into my hands, the chances are also reasonable that by doing so I could increase the chances of my child being harmed.
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I am sick and tired of being a victim. I have been a victim all my life - Jesus never said we should do this, nor is it "holy" to be a victim.
God says, you reap what you sow. But this applies to everyone, not just me. If some son of satan threatens me or my family then he will reap exactly what he sows.
How can you argue with that? |
I would never wish victimhood on you, my friend. This world has enough victims and I wish for no more. However, I cannot grant you or myself an absolute guarantee that it will not happen. What I mean is that I cannot grant myself--or anyone else--the right to unlimited escalation to prevent victimhood. That person you call a "son of satan" is still a miraculous creature wondrously made by God. Even filled with hatred. Even if you do not agree, that person has parents who may well love him as much as you do your own child or I mine.
There you go. The old bleeding heart liberal. But that's the package you get with me whether you like it or not. 
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Plontius,
By the way, I don't know a liberal that really stands for personal freedom. Most of them are over protectionists. They take from hard working business people and give it to lazy people. That isn't freedom. That is socialism.
JB |
Yes, that is my point. You are confusing liberalism with other types of political philosophies, such as socialism. They are not the same. Liberal comes from the Latin word liber, meaning free.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Plontius,
So what you are suggesting is that most of those Americans that call themselves liberals aren't really liberals? I will buy that.
JB |
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Plontius,
So what you are suggesting is that most of those Americans that call themselves liberals aren't really liberals? I will buy that.
JB |
Probably true, my friend. The word "liberal" seems to have a different meaning in the US from other parts of the English speaking world. But let us not forget that these pages are viewed by people throughout the world, not just the US.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Plontius,
Good point. That is something that I must learn. I come from the old school. You know before the word computer existed.
JB |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Plotinus wrote: |
That may be you but it doesn't sound like me. I'm not saying I might not be scared enough to kill someone. But if I did, I doubt that I would feel righteous about it. Sick, shaken, traumatised, soiled, confused, fearful. But not righteous. This is a garden path argument, and I take a dim view of these. If I actually managed to get a gun into my hands, the chances are also reasonable that by doing so I could increase the chances of my child being harmed.
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| eleven wrote: |
I am sick and tired of being a victim. I have been a victim all my life - Jesus never said we should do this, nor is it "holy" to be a victim.
God says, you reap what you sow. But this applies to everyone, not just me. If some son of satan threatens me or my family then he will reap exactly what he sows.
How can you argue with that? |
| Zathrus wrote: |
I would never wish victimhood on you, my friend. This world has enough victims and I wish for no more. However, I cannot grant you or myself an absolute guarantee that it will not happen. What I mean is that I cannot grant myself--or anyone else--the right to unlimited escalation to prevent victimhood. That person you call a "son of satan" is still a miraculous creature wondrously made by God. Even filled with hatred. Even if you do not agree, that person has parents who may well love him as much as you do your own child or I mine.
There you go. The old bleeding heart liberal. But that's the package you get with me whether you like it or not. |
Oh, I like it- how could I deny a brother? 
The problem Zathrus is that you are view all these examples as hypotheticals. But they are real to many of us.
It is true that the "son of satan" is still a miracle of God, nobody is arguing that point. The problem is, this miracle of God had chosen to follow another god. Bad choice, but there is not reason why I or my family should have to pay the price for his poor decision.
If you look closely in the OT, you will find that the childen of Israel were respected as the most skilled and notorious warriors. Who trained them? Who gave them this talent, this reputation? Certainly not me.
They were the most feared army on the planet at the time. Now forgive me if I am a bit sentimental, but I make a claim to that heritage.
I have the right to defend myself. I have the right to kill evil whether it be by the Word in the form of evangelism, or by the gun if a demon comes my way.
There is nothing "holy" about being a victim - although some sick theological leaders will try to claim otherwise.
We are Christians! We are Blessed! To be "blessed" is to be envied by the world. They are supposed to want what we have. We are the LIGHT, we are the BEACON to the truth. Nobody, not even me will follow a theology that says the world is permitted to slap us around and disguise that as "holiness". It's nothing but garbage. That's not the SOLID ROCK I know as my Jesus.
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Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Pete
Big Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 991
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: |
There is nothing "holy" about being a victim - although some sick theological leaders will try to claim otherwise.
We are Christians! We are Blessed! To be "blessed" is to be envied by the world. They are supposed to want what we have. We are the LIGHT, we are the BEACON to the truth. Nobody, not even me will follow a theology that says the world is permitted to slap us around and disguise that as "holiness". It's nothing but garbage. That's not the SOLID ROCK I know as my Jesus. |
I think history has shown that true Christians have been "slapped around" plenty, not so much by the carnal world, but by the politically organized, official "Christian Church" that supposedly represents the God of the Bible, but in fact, is a counterfeit church.
For instance, how would you like to be burned at the stake by them - very slowwwwly? That is, after hanging from a dungeon wall in chains, or stretched on a rack 'til your joints snapped and you "confessed"?
True Christians have been pursecuted plenty in the past, and it will happen again. Take it to the bank! |
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