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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| Plotinus wrote: |
I do understand that the issue is not gun ownership for you personally, but the right in principle to own a gun. Thus (I presume) it becomes an issue of denial of freedom. Perhaps I can move my own understanding of those who see things from your perspective. Do you feel that society should be accepting of the right to use a gun without a specialised training and licensing system? If so, does this extend to a similar right to drive a car? |
Absolutely not!!!
And you bring up another great point!
It has always been my contention that no one be able to purchase and register a weapon without going thru training. How is it that we are required to pass a test to prove we can handle a car or motorcycle, yet a deadly weapon can be purchased without any education???
That is insanity, and no wonder there are so many accidental shootings.
I believe that everyone has the right to own a gun, but before one can purchase one, they need to go thru training to understand how to use it, how to keep it safe, how to keep it clean, and the proper use thereof.
But when I propose this, people jump up and down claiming that that is "gun control" and a violation of their rights.
Sorry, but if that is gun control, I'm all for it.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: |
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I agree eleven.
Bigape, you said:
| Quote: | | If you don’t think that you would be able to kill someone, you should not own a gun for self defense. |
I have found very few people in this world that would be able to answer that question internally, and truthfully until faced with the opportunity to do so. I have also found very few people that have been able to answer that question accurately until given the actuality of killing a person.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I agree eleven.
Bigape, you said:
| Quote: | | If you don’t think that you would be able to kill someone, you should not own a gun for self defense. |
I have found very few people in this world that would be able to answer that question internally, and truthfully until faced with the opportunity to do so. I have also found very few people that have been able to answer that question accurately until given the actuality of killing a person. |
You're right, that is a great point.
Personally, I would have no problem using it if I needed to. If you don't think you could ever do that, then yeah, you should not own one.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: |
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My experience has been that many people who think they would be able to use a gun in such a fashion find out too late that they are unable to do so, and those who do use it such find that they are unable to cope with it after the fact.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | My experience has been that many people who think they would be able to use a gun in such a fashion find out too late that they are unable to do so, and those who do use it such find that they are unable to cope with it after the fact. |
I'll agree with that. So maybe in addition to training people on the mechanics of how to care for a gun, there should also be a psychological test? Might be a good idea.
(oh boy,,,,,,, I can see the NRA going for this one- NOT)
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Personally I don't think gun ownership should be based upon a person's willingness or ability to use the weapon to take a life. But certainly any tool that can be used or misused to cause great harm should be regulated in such a fashion that those who do own that tool know how to use it correctly and safely. What they do with it after that point is completely beyond anyone's control.
Back to the car thing. It is not designed to be used to kill people, and drivers are taught how to use it properly and safely, but if they choose to plow through a playground with it is something beyond the control of anyone but the person driving the car.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Personally I don't think gun ownership should be based upon a person's willingness or ability to use the weapon to take a life. But certainly any tool that can be used or misused to cause great harm should be regulated in such a fashion that those who do own that tool know how to use it correctly and safely. What they do with it after that point is completely beyond anyone's control.
Back to the car thing. It is not designed to be used to kill people, and drivers are taught how to use it properly and safely, but if they choose to plow through a playground with it is something beyond the control of anyone but the person driving the car. |
That may be true, yet no driver's license is issued without taking both a written and driver's test.
Yet I can walk into any Wal-mart and purchase a rifle as long as I am over the age of 18.
Now what is the logic in that?
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Hi eleven
You said......
| Quote: | “That is insanity, and no wonder there are so many accidental shootings.”
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No body knows for sure, how many “accidental shootings” there are, but we do know for a fact, that those in control of our media, will be trying to make us think that it is a lot more than it actually is.
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There is nothing wrong with being trained in using a weapon, before you can buy it;
(Except for fact that if they make it a government mandate, than the government will have the names and addresses of everyone that owns a firearm.)
-And this is simply unacceptable!-
We are all for “instant background checks”, as long as they don’t keep a permanent record of who gets checked:
(Unless of course, they fail.)
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 865
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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To the anti-gunners
The reality of it is, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". I know that it is an old cliche but it is true. If some one wants to take another persons life, they don't need a gun. Before the gun existed there was murder. Murder is a heart condition not a gun condition.
More people die every year in car accidents,drug related incidents and alcohol related events than by guns. Why do they not out law alcohol if it claims so many lives? Maybe we should outlaw Burger King and McDonalds also. Hey, where does the liberal stop?
JB |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| bigape wrote: | Hi eleven
You said......
| Quote: | “That is insanity, and no wonder there are so many accidental shootings.”
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No body knows for sure, how many “accidental shootings” there are, but we do know for a fact, that those in control of our media, will be trying to make us think that it is a lot more than it actually is.
--------------------------------------------------
There is nothing wrong with being trained in using a weapon, before you can buy it;
(Except for fact that if they make it a government mandate, than the government will have the names and addresses of everyone that owns a firearm.)
-And this is simply unacceptable!-
We are all for “instant background checks”, as long as they don’t keep a permanent record of who gets checked:
(Unless of course, they fail.) |
Yup, you are correct. Accidental shootings will always be a source of sensationalism for the media, and everyone knows sensationalism sells.
But how many people who own guns really educate themselves professionally (for a lack of a better term) on there proper use and maintainance? Rather, it tends to be a matter of hands on experience, and that's not good either.
Further how many of adults that own handguns will take the time to educate their children in the proper use and maintenance of the firearm? Not many.
The usual lesson is, don't touch this.
Nothing is more attractive to a child than something they are not suppose to touch. (Adam and Eve) 
But I don't understand your adamant opposition to the government knowing what gun belongs to whom? Why not? They know what car you drive. What's the big deal?
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Hi eleven
You asked.....
| Quote: | “But I don't understand your adamant opposition to the government knowing what gun belongs to whom? Why not? They know what car you drive. What's the big deal?”
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Well it has to do with the criminalization of gun ownership.
I have owned guns for over 30 years, and have never committed a crime nor been arrested, yet there are some people who would feel safer, if my name was in some kind of a government database, of gun owners.
e.g. If the government knew that I owned an AR15, then every time a crime was committed using an AR15, the police would come and confiscate mine, to do a ballistics test, and maybe I would get it back.
Of course, I don’t think there has ever been a crime committed with an AR15, but that doesn’t matter, to a lot of people.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | That may be true, yet no driver's license is issued without taking both a written and driver's test.
Yet I can walk into any Wal-mart and purchase a rifle as long as I am over the age of 18. |
I can go to any car lot and purchase a car without providing a valid drivers license.
| JB wrote: | | More people die every year in car accidents,drug related incidents and alcohol related events than by guns. Why do they not out law alcohol if it claims so many lives? Maybe we should outlaw Burger King and McDonalds also. Hey, where does the liberal stop? |
They have already thought of that JB
| Quote: | | Los Angeles bans new fast food outlets and California outlaws trans-fats. |
Link
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If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hi ragman13
I agree.
If you outlaw “fast food outlets”, only outlaws will get fat.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 590
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| bigape wrote: | Hi ShardikSon
A lot of what you said made sense, until you said......
| Quote: | “The word of God seems fairly clear on this.
"Thou shalt not kill" leaves little wiggle room for details.”
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What this verse literally means, is “Thou shalt not murder”! |
I would suggest that there is a VERY thin line dividing the ideas "to kill" and "to murder". I would also suggest that once you have committed the act, the line gets even thinner. And no, I am not talking about the legal aspect.
| Quote: |
...
If you don’t think that you would be able to kill someone, you should not own a gun for self defense. |
Kind of my point.
The time to decide is before you go out and buy one, not when you are standing there pointing it at someone.
| Quote: |
Invest in a panic-room instead. |
Now there is a trend for the times.
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Mandatory education for gun use and safety and the registration for owners of guns and a maintenance of a database for those owners is in no way a violation of one's civil rights.
Additionally, the 'right to bear arms' in no way refers to or is limited to the ownership of guns. One can be fully within their perceived right to bear arms with the ownership of any type of weapon.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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