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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: LEGALISM: What I Think it Means |
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QUESTION: When Jesus asked Christians to keep 'all' God's commandments......was that legalism ?
(YES or NO )
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Was Jesus a legalist Himself, because HE kept all God's commandments ?
(YES or NO )
15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Will a person get into heaven by being a 'legalist' ?
No, I don't think so.
Some people here, might think I'm a legalist, BUT I hold the same position Jesus Christ held on the point of keeping 'ALL' God's commandments.
And what is that position ?
As long as a person keeps 'ALL' God's commandments based solely on LOVE, for God, and mankind......there is no such thing as legalism.
BUT, if a person tries to keep all God's commandments to gain favor with God, trying to earn their way into heaven...that is.....legalism.
And, it will not work !
One thing I want to say is.....that NO ONE can keep any of God's commandments in their own human power.....that is simply impossible.
ONLY God can hlep a person keep them as HE wants them to be kept....and HE has promised to provide that help.
It is called: Grace.
Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Some people might think that the Pharisees (in Christ's time) kept the commandments.
NO...they did not !
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
According to the above Scriptures.....we know that the pharisees tried to kill Jesus on several occasions, which means....since they broke one of the commandments, they broke them all.
They were 'legakists'.....because they left out one of the prime elements of commandment-keeping.
And that one element was LOVE, for God or mankind.
In other words, without LOVE, any and all trying to keep any of God's commandments, is legalism.
On the other hand, keeping God's commandments, with the added element of LOVE, for God and mankind, is the heart of the Gospel message that Jesus was trying to impress upon people.
(Sermon on the Mount, Matthew, Chapter 5)
Again, Let's look at what Jesus said:
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Commandments - Love
Commandments - Love
Twice !
Now.....does anyone understand WHY I keep the 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath ?
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: Re: LEGALISM: What I Think it Means |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | QUESTION: When Jesus asked Christians to keep 'all' God's commandments......was that legalism ?
(YES or NO ) |
No.
| Silver Surfer wrote: |
Was Jesus a legalist Himself, because HE kept all God's commandments ?
(YES or NO ) |
No. Jesus was most definitely NOT a legalist.
Let's keep going..........
| Silver Surfer wrote: |
Will a person get into heaven by being a 'legalist' ?
No, I don't think so. |
HEY! Patience is a virtue - we finally agree on something. 
| Silver Surfer wrote: |
Some people here, might think I'm a legalist, BUT I hold the same position Jesus Christ held on the point of keeping 'ALL' God's commandments.
One thing I want to say is.....that NO ONE can keep any of God's commandments in their own human power.....that is simply impossible. |
YEAH! Control tower, we have liftoff!!!
| SilverSurfer wrote: |
In other words, without LOVE, any and all trying to keep any of God's commandments, is legalism.
On the other hand, keeping God's commandments, with the added element of LOVE, for God and mankind, is the heart of the Gospel message that Jesus was trying to impress upon people.
(Sermon on the Mount, Matthew, Chapter 5) |
WOW, THIS JUST KEEPS GETTING BETTER AND BETTER!
FANTASTIC!!! 
| SilverSurfer wrote: |
Again, Let's look at what Jesus said:
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my [color=red]love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/color]
Commandments - Love
Commandments - Love
Twice ! |
Actually, it can't be said enough.
We are soaring thru the universe 
| SilverSurfer wrote: |
Now.....does anyone understand WHY I keep the 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath ? |
Uh-oh Houston, we have a problem...............
And pray tell Silver, WHAT DAY of the week might that be???
If I love the Lord my God with all my heart, my soul, my mind, my strength, my hair folicles, toenails -----down to the very breath I take from one nanosecond to the next, and spend all day WEDNESDAY worshipping Him from dawn until midnight, am I still keeping the ALL the commandments?? Cause if I'm not, I just broke them all. So now there is no chance of me getting into heaven, because as you said, sinners just don't get to into heaven nor are they a friend of God.
Go head Silver, tell me again that you're NOT a legalist.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: Re: LEGALISM: What I Think it Means |
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| SilverSurfer wrote: |
Now.....does anyone understand WHY I keep the 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath ? |
| eleven wrote: |
Uh-oh Houston, we have a problem...............
And pray tell Silver, WHAT DAY of the week might that be??? |
God is wise enough that when HE tells us to observe a certain day.....that HE would also identify which day that was, don't you think ?
| Quote: |
If I love the Lord my God with all my heart, my soul, my mind, my strength, my hair folicles, toenails -----down to the very breath I take from one nanosecond to the next, and spend all day WEDNESDAY worshipping Him from dawn until midnight, am I still keeping the ALL the commandments?? Cause if I'm not, I just broke them all. So now there is no chance of me getting into heaven, because as you said, sinners just don't get to into heaven nor are they a friend of God.
Ga head Silver, tell me again that you're NOT a legalist.
:roll: |
Jesus Christ kept the 7th day sabbath....did that make HIM a legalist too ?
The 7th day sabbath is just one, of the BIG Ten (Exodus 20:3-17).
To ignore it, or reject it is just as bad as..... lying....stealing ......killing ....in the eyes of God.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| SilverSurfer wrote: | | "To ignore the Sabbath, or reject it, is just as bad as lying... stealing... killing... in the eyes of God." |
Who said it's just as bad? |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| SilverSurfer wrote: | | "NO ONE can keep any of God's commandments in their own human power... that is simply impossible." |
Who said it's not possible to keep God's commandments in our own human power? |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | SilverSurfer wrote: | | "To ignore the Sabbath, or reject it, is just as bad as lying... stealing... killing... in the eyes of God." |
Who said it's just as bad? |
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | SilverSurfer wrote: | | "NO ONE can keep any of God's commandments in their own human power... that is simply impossible." |
Who said it's not possible to keep God's commandments in our own human power? |
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
AND...Righteousness is defined in the Bible as God's commandments.......
Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness.
119:173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law [is] my delight.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: LEGALISM: What I Think it Means |
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| SilverSurfer wrote: | Jesus Christ kept the 7th day sabbath....did that make HIM a legalist too ?
The 7th day sabbath is just one, of the BIG Ten (Exodus 20:3-17).
To ignore it, or reject it is just as bad as..... lying....stealing ......killing ....in the eyes of God. |
Oh, suddenly you're at a loss for words?
What was designated as the first day of the week and the seventh day of the week was established by man, not God.
What God actually said was,
Genesis 2
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Meaning He had WORKED 6 days, but rested on the 7th.
I work Monday thru Saturday. That's 6 days. Sunday is my Sabbath, and I keep IT holy.
But I bet you are still going to argue with me that UNLESS I rest on Saturday, I'm going to burn in hell.
Can you say, "legalist"? I knew that you could.
Because the LAW OF MOSES is what established Saturday as the SABBATH - NOT GOD, NOT JESUS -
The LAW OF MOSES.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | SilverSurfer wrote: | | "NO ONE can keep any of God's commandments in their own human power... that is simply impossible." |
Who said it's not possible to keep God's commandments in our own human power? |
Uhhhh........I think it was God.
Tell ya what. Stay right there, and I'll get back to you on that one.........
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | GospelCompilation wrote: | | SilverSurfer wrote: | | "NO ONE can keep any of God's commandments in their own human power... that is simply impossible." |
Who said it's not possible to keep God's commandments in our own human power? |
Uhhhh........I think it was God.
Tell ya what. Stay right there, and I'll get back to you on that one......... |
Satan is the one who keeps telling man/woman that they cannot keep the commandments.
God (Jesus ) says they can.....
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | GospelCompilation wrote: | | SilverSurfer wrote: | | "NO ONE can keep any of God's commandments in their own human power... that is simply impossible." |
Who said it's not possible to keep God's commandments in our own human power? |
Uhhhh........I think it was God.
Tell ya what. Stay right there, and I'll get back to you on that one......... |
Satan is the one who keeps telling man/woman that they cannot keep the commandments. |
No, actually it was you.
Because unless I do the Saturday sabbath, I've broken one of the commandments, which means I've broken them all, despite the fact that God never said anything about "Saturday".
Apologies to those out there who are sick and tired of this subject.........I am too!!!
| SilverSurfer wrote: |
God (Jesus ) says they can.....
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. |
That's true. But again YOU are the one who comes along and keeps telling everyone else (or at least the ones who worship differently than you) that we are wrong.
On top of that, you keep insinuating that one can keep them perfectly (144,000) , despite scripture stating NONE of us can, but AGAIN, you know better than God.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | [On top of that, you keep insinuating that one can keep them perfectly (144,000) , despite scripture stating NONE of us can, but AGAIN, you know better than God. |
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | [On top of that, you keep insinuating that one can keep them perfectly (144,000) , despite scripture stating NONE of us can, but AGAIN, you know better than God. |
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. |
So what am I supposed to do, disagree with this?
This is scripture so it must be true.
The problem is, you keep inserting fictional messages into scripture that do not exist, thereby claiming it states something it doesn't.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Eleven wrote: | | "The problem is, you keep inserting fictional messages into Scripture that do not exist, thereby claiming it states something it doesn't." |
I have to agree with Eleven on this one, Surfer. Even though I agree with most of your theology, it's the presentation that lacks wisdom. You are your message's own worst enemy. You discredit yourself and your message by inserting fictional adages into Scripture that do not exist.
JESUS DIDN'T ANSWER PILATE'S QUESTION
The saddest thing is, my friend, you don't have to do any of this. My advice is that you take time to learn from God how to present your particular message, because the truth will stand on its own. Trust me when I say this: the truth doesn't need you to defend it. Truth will stand on its own. That's why Jesus didn't bother to answer Pilate's question when he asked Him, "What is truth?" Because anything you add to the truth (even if you're only trying to help) will serve to discredit the truth and make God a liar.
SPEAKING AS AN OLDER BROTHER
I speak these words as an older brother, as one who cares for you, as I care for all my brothers and sisters in Christ. The greatest service you can do for God is to learn HOW to properly present the Gospel, so that you offend no one. Because it was Christ who warned, "Woe to the one who offends another, for it would be better for a millstone to be hung around his neck and he be cast into the sea."
EMULATE CHRIST
When Christ walked the earth, "He did not cry out, nor raise His voice. A bent reed He did break, and a smoldering wick He did not quench." Learn what that means, my young friend, and figure out how to emulate it. Then, when you have mastered that principle, you will present the message God has given you with love and peace and joy and gentleness - just like Christ did. |
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: Re: LEGALISM: What I Think it Means |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | QUESTION: When Jesus asked Christians to keep 'all' God's commandments......was that legalism ?
(YES or NO )
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Was Jesus a legalist Himself, because HE kept all God's commandments ?
(YES or NO )
15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Now.....does anyone understand WHY I keep the 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath ?
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. |
Frankly SS, I think every time you see the word "commandment, you take it to mean the ten commandments. In most of these cases, if not all, "commandment " means "teaching" and not necessarily the ten commandments.
Jesus taught a lot of things that were apart from the ten commandments. When he did discuss the ten commandments specifically, he was speaking to Jews, not Gentiles. |
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