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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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 Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Virbate'
| Virbate wrote: | | The truth is that we can go back and forth forever talking about who did what to whom, and who is wrong. I do not believe that this will get us anywhere. |
I agree this isn't the most productive use of time. You however, made some pretty drastic statements to my replies, yet cannot recognize how you "shut down" the conversation. This is a main reason I choose not to discuss your philosophy. For me to alter that decision I need to see reasonablness. I believe you need to face your actions and make adjustments. You seem unwilling to do so.
Please answer the final question in bold.
| Virbate wrote: |
Next time you don't understand, don't answer. |
And when I didn't answer, what did you do? |
I am not able to answer that question, since to my understanding you never "didn't answer". You always answered, and this is why I took exception. My position has been that someone should listen, and investigate, and if you don't understand what is said you should not make any comment for or against. The only valid comment is to ask for more information, or for clarification.
Please let me know if there's a specific reaction of mine that you are referring to. We've had a lot of back and forth, so it's hard to look through and figure out what you might be getting at.
If you show me this place where you "didn't answer", then I'll be able to answer your question and say what I did in response. I will also provide an explanation about why I feel that reaction was correct. Or, in the unlikely case it was an error (I say unlikely since I've been very careful, but may still have slipped up) I would happily apologize and correct myself. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Virbate,
| Virbate wrote: | | I am not able to answer that question, since to my understanding you never "didn't answer". You always answered, and this is why I took exception. |
I never "didn't answer"???
I didn't answer your question at first, and your responce was hypocritical to your advise. Namely:
| Virbate wrote: | | Next time you don't understand, don't answer. |
If I answered, then what does this mean?
| Virbate wrote: | | See everyone, that is how you shut someone down who belongs to any organization. He can't answer my questions, even though they are so simple that any child could answer. Why can't he? |
I never "didn't answer"???
You declared victory because I didn't answer your questions, by your own words above. Now you are telling me I did answer?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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From the get-go, I have stated that I represent the natural order, which God created. Of course, I have invited anyone to ask what this means, or for details, and I have always answered. You reacted negatively, even though you claim not to be sure what I was talking about. So I asked you to explain your perspective, and the following ensued: | Virbate wrote: | | Tell me, how does the JW organization rate? Is it a naturally occurring system? Do you understand what I mean by "naturally occurring system"? |
| Virbate wrote: | | TBax wrote: | Virbate,
Let me help you. It all boils down to this.
If we both don't view the Bible as the authority to set things straight, then we will go nowhere. 
If you want to talk about vague, I don't believe anything gets more vague then "I belong to a naturally occurring system of nature". You are looking into yourself for truth when you need to be looking into the Bible.
And I didn't come to my conclusion from just your posting here, but from our previous conversations as well. Your second to last post just confirmed your position, and our lacking a common ground. |
See everyone, that is how you shut someone down who belongs to any organization. He can't answer my questions, even though they are so simple that any child could answer. Why can't he?
A religious organization is based on the organization, but truth existed, obviously, long before that organization was started. Truth begins with God, and is eternal. But the organization started in some year on a particular day. The whole point of the organization is trying to govern people from the outside, by trying to mimic the appearance of a natural order.
So stand for nature, and they will have to start playing dodging games. Look at the last interchange between myself and TBax and judge it for yourself. See what happened. JW is trying to be natural, but they're not. Only nature is natural.
Now he's trying to convince us that there is more to nature than nature. But ask for a reason, and he cannot provide any. Of course he can't! |
This is why I said that you did not answer my question "where does the JW organization stand wrt nature". But you did "answer" without answering my question. You retorted, but did not approach my question directly, and so far you still have not approached it.
All this has been simply this: 1) I stated my stand, which is for nature. 2) You rejected without understanding. 3) I asked you what is the JW position wrt nature, to invite you to make a stand. 4) You have "answered" but never really answered, by dealing with the simple question.
These are not emotional or illogical statements I'm making. I'm simply explaining what I see. If you feel they are wrong, please just point out how, and provide evidence. That's all it takes.
And the best way to get through this is for you to just answer the question: How does JW stand wrt the natural order of life? That is the same question I asked you again a couple posts ago: "Is sin natural; and does Jesus teach a natural Way or an unnatural one?" Please simply advise how the JW stands in response to these questions, and we can move ahead. What's so wrong with that?
Is there any other JW out there who cares to provide an answer? I mean, a real answer - either you accept nature, reject nature, or are unsure about what nature means, or are unsure about the JW position. Is there any other valid answer? If so, please give it. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Virbate,
I didn't answer your convoluted questions, period.  You attacked me for it. Then proceed to offer advice contrary to your actions. 
| Virbate wrote: | 1) I stated my stand, which is for nature. 2) You rejected without understanding. 3) I asked you what is the JW position wrt nature, to invite you to make a stand. 4) You have "answered" but never really answered, by dealing with the simple question.
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I was answering why I won't discuss these things with you as we lack a common ground, as we have discussed this before. It wasn't about your convoluted question. You admitted there was no answer, which I didn't dispute. I latter gave an answer allowing for the vagueness of your phrases. You then proceeded to react illogically and emotionally. Also in an arrogant fasion.
Listen. You may have provided explanations about your beliefs, but many things you say I and the scriptures flat out don't agree with. I reject many of your explanations and do not believe as you do. Your convoluted phrases of a "naturally occuring system of nature" and "external systems of control" are not terms I will definitively answer without qualifiers. Period. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Thanks TBax. Basically what you're saying is that you don't know what I'm saying and you don't care. You disagree anyway. You haven't understood what the natural order is. Therefore you are not qualified to agree or disagree. That much is obvious to anyone.
You claim that I have stated things that contradict the Bible and the Way. If you tell me one thing that I have stated that contradicts the Way and the Bible, that is all it takes to prove your case. Just one thing. Can you do that, since you claim I have said "many" wrong things?
My view on this is that you have not understood anything that I have said at all. You have not understood the central point, nor any explanation. You cannot prove that I said anything against the Bible and the Way simply because you don't know what I said. You are likely referring to things that I said, which you take out of context, and try to guess at an interpretation (then you show how that guessed interpretation is against the Bible).
Obviously statements must be read in context to be understood. If you do not understand my overall point, about what is the natural order, then you do not understand the context of anything that I have said. So how can you believe that you understand enough to make the claim you have made - that I stated things contrary to the Bible?
Just tell me one thing that I said that is contrary to the Bible! One thing. Is that fair to ask, since you claim I have said many? I guarantee you that unless you twist words to change their meaning, you will not be able to do that. The Bible teaches only the Natural Order. God's word does not contradict itself, no matter what the source. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Look, it comes down to this.
Anybody who would throw another person out in the cold to show how "holy" they are is a moron.
That is not what the Bible teaches, that's not what Jesus demonstrates.
Jesus threw Himself right into the heart of the biggest sinners and said, I didn't come here to call the righteous- It is the sick that need a physician.
It's one thing to separate yourself from destructive people - they will never learn, so ok.
But to separate and give the cold shoulder routine to friends and relatives who keep trying to contact you.........that's unforgiveable!!!!!!!!!!!
Well you reap what you sow, JW's.
May God treat you the same way you treat them.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Virbate,
| Virbate wrote: | | Just tell me one thing that I said that is contrary to the Bible! One thing. |
If I did you would argue the point. We have been here before, that is why I do not care to talk to you. I am not interested in arguing with you, as you are very wordy and contradict yourself consistently.
| Virbate wrote: | | See everyone, that is how you shut someone down who belongs to any organization. He can't answer my questions, even though they are so simple that any child could answer. Why can't he? |
I suppose I am just much simpler then a child. 
| Virbate wrote: | | 4) You have "answered" but never really answered |
Have I? I answered, but didn't answer???
Take care Virbate.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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eleven,
| eleven wrote: | | Anybody who would throw another person out in the cold to show how "holy" they are is a moron. |
What are you saying about Jesus and God?
Matt 8:11 But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; 12 whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be.”
Matt 13:41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.
Matt 24:48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.
You can judge our motives as evil if you like.  The truth means peoples lives. If they do not take it seriously they will die. To follow scriptural counsel is not the action of morons.
1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
If it is acceptable for you to reject these inspired words, judge for yourself.
| eleven wrote: | But to separate and give the cold shoulder routine to friends and relatives who keep trying to contact you.........that's unforgiveable!!!!!!!!!!!
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What is more important to you? Jesus or your friends and relatives? Shocking them to their senses is far more important and loving then accepting them with their permisive ways that will lead to their everlasting destruction. 
Matt 10:36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be persons of his own household. 37 He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Matt 25:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Which side are you on, TBax when you falsely accuse me? When you turn your back on me? When you can't give a sister a helping hand nor the time of day? What have I done to you? When you cite those nasty, accusatory scriptures, where do you think I fit? I'm not a drunkard, an adulterer, a fornicator, a reviler etc...
I am a sinner just like you who is working daily on my relationship with God.
Read Jesus' own words very carefully and pray about this with your whole heart. I know change is difficult but if the JW's did an about-face tomorrow on this issue, what would your stance be? Follow the brothers? Trust the brothers? It could happen as they have 'softened' and then'hardened' their position at will in the past.
Who are you following anyway? God & Jesus or mankind?
At this point, I'm not trying to have a brother/sister relationship with you but I hope you consider the scriptures, ask your 'brothers' the questions I have posed for you and start thinking from your heart as an individual, as a child of God.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
Get a grip on reality, and try to understand what has actually been said.
| luvnlife wrote: | | Which side are you on, TBax when you falsely accuse me? |
Enough with your lies! My only accusations about you came from you own words in revealing your past action of disassociating yourself, and your lack of fortitude to bear the consequences.
| luvnlife wrote: | | When you cite those nasty, accusatory scriptures, where do you think I fit? |
If the scriptures are "nasty" and "accusatory" it is because you are making them such. Not everything is about you! If you feel God's word is condemning you, perhaps there is a reason.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart.
Get a grip, and don't expect replies from me unless you come back to the truth.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | luvnlife,
Get a grip on reality, and try to understand what has actually been said. |
You sound angry.
| luvnlife wrote: | | Which side are you on, TBax when you falsely accuse me? |
TBax: | Quote: | | Enough with your lies! My only accusations about you came from you own words in revealing your past action of disassociating yourself, and your lack of fortitude to bear the consequences.? |
Consequences for what?? I'm waiting for you to tell me what I did. I knew people in the congregation where my family attended church who drank, smoked, stepped out on their spouses, harmed or allowed others to harm their children..... I knew one man who drank in his car in the parking lot of the Kingdom Hall before coming in to meeting. Nothing was ever done about these things. I did not get thrown out. I left. I didn't leave because I was doing something wrong, I left because the spirit of God was not in that place. I stayed gone because I came to the realization that Christians don't treat one another like I have been treated (while at the same time accepting biblically unacceptable behaviors from those who chose to remain 'baptized). In studying the bible on my own, person to person, in other churches and in study groups, I have come to realize that JW's are very judgmental and some of their beliefs and practices are not in line with the bible.
BTW, I did not get 'un'baptized. I left a church, a group of people, many who I know were not living their lives in step with Gods commandments.
| luvnlife wrote: | | When you cite those nasty, accusatory scriptures, where do you think I fit? |
TBax: | Quote: | | If the scriptures are "nasty" and "accusatory" it is because you are making them such. Not everything is about you! If you feel God's word is condemning you, perhaps there is a reason. |
Why have you cited them so many times in reference to our discussion then? Why have you used them when talking about me?
TBax: | Quote: | Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart.
Get a grip, and don't expect replies from me unless you come back to the truth. |
TBax; You can't reply. You can't even answer the simplest questions I have asked you. Questions like: What have I done that is so wrong that you stand in judment of me? Are you a sinner or are you perfect? Who are you to judge my relationship with God? Are you perfect and if not, why are you constantly berating me?
You are angry with me because you can't answer these questions.
I have the truth in my life. What the JW's offered was far from it.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Prov 11:9 By [his] mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 160
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Wow, I thougt this was a christain forum. This has turn into a dog fight about a nonessential issues.
luvnlife,
You did what was best for you by leaving the JW group. Don't expect them to change there ways anytime soon. Trust in the Lord to heal your relationship with your family. The anger you are getting from trying to have Tbax say they (JW's) are wrong can eat you up inside. It is useless. |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 769
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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This thread is locked for the time being.
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
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