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dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 160
Location: Wylie
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 Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
You are full of mercy and I sense your heart is open for communication with Tbax.
Tbax,
Its a shame that you hear luvnlife heart going out to you for communication and you are harding your heart. If I were in a group that promoted such things I would have left a long time ago. Love overcomes all. That is the very reason Jesus died for us. LOVE. I just don't understand how you are hiding behind scripture that tells you to Throw out the wrong person but you forget the scriptures from Christ himself that tell you to Forgive and Love one another. Do you understand how love for one another can bridge so many issues in this world, but the reason we have so many issues in this world today is for the very same reason you turning your back on luvnlife. Hate and a lack of understanding. Not trying to be mean or rude but we as a vessel for the truth as your group claims to be, you should be setting the example of how Jesus the Great Teacher wanted us to live with each other and I don't think this is what he was talking about.
REMEMBER CHRIST IN ALL YOU DO!!!! LONG SUFFERING!!!! |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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dabmci,
People who knew and were baptized in the truth and choose to turn away from it are clearly apostates.
| Quote: | | This term in Greek (a·po·sta·si′a) comes from the verb a·phi′ste·mi, literally meaning “stand away from.” The noun has the sense of “desertion, abandonment or rebellion.” |
Prov 11:9 By [his] mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued.
2 John 1: 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.
If I had to deal with luvnlife, like in buisness, I could, but I choose not to socialize with her or to share the spiritual things she turned away from. 
She could come back. She choose not to. My choice is made as well. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Apostate: One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.
That's not me. I left a group of people. I did not leave God or Jesus. I still have faith. I still worship God. But I still do not believe in the way JW's treat others and I don't believe in the bias that exists in the church.
Don't call me an apostate. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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TBax;
You said earlier that you stand by your brothers' decision.
I explained to you that the decision was mine and was, in no way, a result of wrong-doing on my part.
I need to also point out that you SHOULD be standing by OUR brother.... Jesus Christ.
Luv
P.S. Dabmci and Zathrus, thank you for your kind posts. I appreciate it. I'm not going to try and change TBax's mind but on the other hand, I cannot pretend that I have a clue as to why he's made this decision. It makes no sense at all to me and it seems rather silly since he's still talking to all of you, even knowing that you will never join his church.
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Quote:
This term in Greek (a·po·sta·si′a) comes from the verb a·phi′ste·mi, literally meaning “stand away from.” The noun has the sense of “desertion, abandonment or rebellion.”
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It amazes me when people use this definition to mean that an apostate is a bad thing. By using this definition all JW converts are apostates for abandoning there previous teachings.
What does this definition prove in luvnlife's case? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I have been in churches and ministries that operate this way. It comes down to if you leave their little bunch, they view you as a traitor, a backstabber, and an enemy.
In many churches, if someone leaves, it is understood that maybe they held a different spiritual vision, or are seeking a different emphasis in ministry. They just need to go where they will be fed, or where they feel they belong. Whether those who leave are still saved is never in question. It's assumed they and those who stay are all still part of the body of Christ as a whole.
And those who leave because they are going through a rough time in life, and maybe fall into some destructive behavior, many churches will reach out to them, and offer support.
But in any group where there is the belief that they have a greater truth or higher vision than the rest of Christianity, or they are the one and only way to salvation, you'll see dysfunctional behavior like shunning. I was part of a church in the 80's where anyone who left was viciously scorned and condemned by the pastor for leaving. He believed this church was to be a group of Super Saints, more spiritually mature and strong than everyone else. So anyone who left was not going forward in God, but drawing back. If someone gave word that they were going to leave, they were called to a meeting where they were raked through the muck before leaving. At least after anyone left, he had plenty of sermon material for a few weeks!! 
America's religious landscape is dotted with thousands of such little groups, all believing they are more spiritual than everyone else, or even believing they are the only ones saved at all. We hear about them on TV sometimes, when the more outlandish ones are discovered and investigations are made.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Officially approved in 451 |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Even my mother believes that I am not saved and neither are my siblings. I have only one sibling who associates with the JW's but he has not spoken (civilly) to anyone in our family in over a decade.
What does that tell you?
We got in an argument not too long ago when I explained to her (my mother) that many people from many churches will be saved and I provided biblical support. She told me it was upsetting her, we weren't getting anywhere and to 'just drop it.'
I also asked her about the two genealogies of Jesus and instead of saying 'I don't know. I'll research it and let you know what I find out or what I think about it' she said "I don't know. I'll have to ask the brothers." I approached her about it again and she had the same response. She never did get back with me about it and so I followed the thread that was started on this site.
I just found it interesting that my Mom had a similar response to TBax's. They let the brothers think for them.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints
Last edited by Luvnlife on Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:52 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | She told me it was upsetting her, we weren't getting anywhere and to 'just drop it.' |
That could mean she knows down inside that you may be right. But I've observed that when people have a lot invested in a religious affiliation, they are very reluctant to let it all go even if it is proven wrong. They may be afraid of the scorn and contempt of their "brothers" if they leave. They may just feel they've been part of this organization for so many years, they don't want to face the idea that so much of their life was wasted.
Those are the concerns you might have to address in dealing with your relatives, luvinlife.
| luvnlife wrote: | ... she said "I don't know. I'll have to ask the brothers."
...They let the brothers think for them. |
That's what all controlling religious groups want - for the people under them to simply allow those in control to tell them what to think. It was similar in the Full Gospel Assembly church I went to in the 80's. Bible study was encouraged, but if you found something in God's Word that contradicted what they taught, then rather than open-mindedness, you got resistance.
As I understand it, the Witnesses have a small group of men who they call the "faithful and discrete slave" (another example of an apocalyptic group reading themselves into prophecy) who they believe reaceive revelation from God and dictate the teachings of the Witnesses. This is much like the clergy of the Catholic Church who for a long time didn't even allow the lay people to read scripture, not trusting them to understand the truth for themselves, and thinking themselves the only ones qualified to formulate doctrine and hear from God.
Just as the Catholics rejected the truth from God's Word which Martin Luther discovered, because it did not agree with their established teachings, modern day religious groups are closed-minded, and in the case of the more authoritarian ones, show themselves outright hostile, to truth from God's Word that doesn't agree with how they have it all worked out.
luvinlife, this is what you're up against in dealing with your relatives. But I can attest that leaving such a church is the best decision someone could make, regardless how much of one's self one has invested in it. It's better to enjoy a few years of happiness, freedom and not having one's walk with God controlled by men than to insist one is right and spend the rest of one's life under religious oppresion.
Like the song says, "People everywhere just want to be free". It's how we were meant to live. On some level your relatives must know they are being enslaved. But I can testify that while one is in such a religious situation, one thinks that it has to be that way. Your relatives must discover that it does not have to be that way. They can walk away, never look back, and not have to fear eternal damnation, not have to be afraid of insults and scorn from petty little religious people. You yourself are called an apostate on this board. Don't let that hurt you. Do you think any of us see any validity to that claim? No! Even if some part of you wonders if God does, know that He certainly doesn't. Your relatives struggle with these issues. They've bought into beliefs and made ties with "brothers" in their religious group, all of which they'll have to walk away from if they acknowlege the truth. They are fortunate to have you there as an ally though.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Like the song says, "People everywhere just want to be free". |
Yes, just like Adam and Eve.  Freedom is a relative thing. All are slaves in one form or another. I am a slave of God and of Jesus. In being such, I have great freedom. You can be a slave to the truth, or a slave to false permissive ideas. Our choices all have consequences. To deny this is to deny reality.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | Like the song says, "People everywhere just want to be free". |
Yes, just like Adam and Eve. Freedom is a relative thing. All are slaves in one form or another. I am a slave of God and of Jesus. In being such, I have great freedom. You can be a slave to the truth, or a slave to false permissive ideas. Our choices all have consequences. To deny this is to deny reality. |
Is God a slave? Is someone who agrees with God a slave? Jesus said that one who commits sin is the slave of sin. Only sin is slavery. But understanding and agreeing with God is pure freedom - nothing relative about it.
This is the basic thing that every single religious person starts by thinking: that everyone is a slave. Oh well, good luck with that. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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TBax, you claim that I have not answered these two questions of yours in bold:
1) In using a vague term, is it not arrogant to demand all people view that term exactly as you do?
Answer: Yes, such a thing would be arrogant, if someone were to do that.
Comments: I never did that. I used a term that can be interpreted correctly or incorrectly, and you chose to hazard a guess about the meaning. I then explained that your guess, and therefore your conclusion, were incorrect. Note, this comment is not defensive and it does not lack logic. I am clearly explaining the context.
The next question was: Since I don't know your understanding of the term "external systems of control", is not my statement logical?
Namely: If you consider the first century Christian congregation and the Bible as "external systems of control", then yes, JW's are the same. Both the law the Israelites were to follow and Christianity results from taking in knowledge from outside sources, not from within themselves, and making that knowledge a part of you.
Answer: Yes, it's logical.
Comments: It doesn't say anything about the point at hand, which is whether or not JW is an external system of control. It has been established that JW's believe themselves to be the continuation of the first century Christian congregation and the Bible. So your "if... then" statement is logical as far as saying what it says, but as far as the relevance of what it says to the question it addresses (or doesn't address actually) it is lacking.
For example, if you happen to be hungry when you read these words, and you respond: "I am hungry", that would be a logical statement, but an irrelevant one.
Again, I hope you can see that my answer is straightforward, and not deceptive, illogical or defensive at all.
So I hope you can consider my original question now. External control, for the record, simply means trying to control a person without fully allowing for their full freedom to be who they decide to be. The question is basically whether JW's acknowledge that personal freedom of choice and conscience should be FULLY protected and promoted at ALL times.
So, do they, or not? Or is my question still vague? |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolvo wrote: | | TBax wrote: | Quote:
This term in Greek (a·po·sta·si′a) comes from the verb a·phi′ste·mi, literally meaning “stand away from.” The noun has the sense of “desertion, abandonment or rebellion.”
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It amazes me when people use this definition to mean that an apostate is a bad thing. By using this definition all JW converts are apostates for abandoning there previous teachings.
What does this definition prove in luvnlife's case? |
This is an excellent point, Wolvo!
Let's say we all adopt the JW principle!
Whatever church TBax was with before he became JW should abandon and disown him! Whatever church you belonged to before joining your present church should disown you. And if you are Lutheran and your parents are Protestant and your sister is Mormon and your brother is Catholic, you should all disown each other based on this principle!
I'm being facetious, of course but the point is, if all religions went around doing this to people where would we be? This is not something that leads to peace. This is not something that promotes harmony. This is not something that honors Jesus.
TBax; I was 12 when I was baptized as a JW. I learned a lot later on as I matured and I saw a lot of things happen in our congregation that should not have been happening.
Let me enlighten you:
My mothers best friend in the church had an affair with my stepfather (who was not in the church).
Her husband made improper advances to me when I was 15 but I thwarted the advances. (I was their babysitter).
One of the Elders was living a double life, gambling, smoking, cheating on his wife and drinking.
Another sisters husband did unspeakable things to her children and she stuck by his side. He later did those same things to some of her grandchildren.
Guess what happened?
The Elder left his wife and the church and married his girlfriend.
Aside from that, NOTHING happened! The Elders talked to the woman who had the affair with my stepdad and that was all! The woman whose husband hurt her children is still a witness in good standing in the same congregation. There was no discipline in any of these cases.
This is only one little congregation. And these are only of few of the things that went on in our congregation.
My family decided to get out when I was 18 years old.
I'm glad I did. My mother got sucked back in and so did two of my brothers. One of them left the church finally but the other is still there.
Your attitude towards me, TBax, makes me very happy I decided not to go back.
Several months ago, after heavy consideration, I started going to a different Christian church in my area. I had been attending an Assemblies of God church for several years.
Guess what they did when I stopped going? They asked after my welfare. They wanted to know how I was doing. I told them I was attending another church and they told me they love me and support me going somewhere where I am being fed spiritually even if it's not their church I am now attending.
I'm glad they were more understanding, caring and compassionate than the JW's. I'm glad not all churches judge others the way JW's do.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Virbate,
You were able to answer 2 of the questions logically, but either do not posses the ability to understand how the questions apply to this discussion, or refuse to acknowledge how they apply. You can recognize logic, but appearently cannot always make practical application of it. 
1) In using a vague term, is it not arrogant to demand all people view that term exactly as you do?
| Virbate wrote: | | Answer: Yes, such a thing would be arrogant, if someone were to do that. |
Correct. There is only one correct answer and you gave it here. But then you continue:
| Virbate wrote: | | Comments: I never did that. I used a term that can be interpreted correctly or incorrectly, and you chose to hazard a guess about the meaning. I then explained that your guess, and therefore your conclusion, were incorrect. |
This is quite telling. You say you "never did that" when that is exactly what you did. Your responce to my answer was:
| Virbate wrote: | You're so scared of this question you don't know what to figure out where to run! Let's see your last pitiful attempt at making people think you can respond:
| TBax wrote: | | If you consider the first century Christian congregation and the Bible as "external systems of control", then yes, JW's are the same. Both the law the Israelites were to follow and Christianity results from taking in knowledge from outside sources, not from within themselves, and making that knowledge a part of you. |
...
So again you're asking me to tell you what you consider. Don't you know? I asked you the question and you're asking it back to me! Don't say "If you consider..." The question is DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT CONSIDER THE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION AND THE BIBLE TO BE OUTSIDE SOURCED? |
You jumped all over me because I don't understand how you viewed that term and made it known.
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Since I don't know your understanding of the term "external systems of control", is not my statement logical?
Namely: If you consider the first century Christian congregation and the Bible as "external systems of control", then yes, JW's are the same. Both the law the Israelites were to follow and Christianity results from taking in knowledge from outside sources, not from within themselves, and making that knowledge a part of you.
| Virbate wrote: | | Answer: Yes, it's logical. |
Correct. There is only one correct answer and you made it. However, you preceeded to show you cannot apply it:
| Virbate wrote: | | Comments: It doesn't say anything about the point at hand, which is whether or not JW is an external system of control. It has been established that JW's believe themselves to be the continuation of the first century Christian congregation and the Bible. So your "if... then" statement is logical as far as saying what it says, but as far as the relevance of what it says to the question it addresses (or doesn't address actually) it is lacking. |
That may be true from your perspective. But since I responded in a logical manner, and you responded with an illogical emotion reaction, no conversation can be had, nor was one desired on my part as your manner of disscussion has "shut me down" before.
Why would I continue with you when your reply was very telling that you are choosing to be "arrogant" and "illogical" to my answer? You see things from your perspective but refuse to understand my POV.
| Virbate wrote: | You're so scared of this question you don't know what to figure out where to run! Let's see your last pitiful attempt at making people think you can respond:
...
So again you're asking me to tell you what you consider. Don't you know? I asked you the question and you're asking it back to me! Don't say "If you consider..." The question is DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT CONSIDER THE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION AND THE BIBLE TO BE OUTSIDE SOURCED? |
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We will not continue until you answered all the questions.
You never answered the third question. This is required.
| Virbate wrote: | | Next time you don't understand, don't answer. |
And when I didn't answer, what did you do?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | You can recognize logic, but appearently cannot always make practical application of it. |
That's very true. I do understand the general principles of logic, but my ability to apply those principles is limited to the things that I understand.
The truth is that we can go back and forth forever talking about who did what to whom, and who is wrong. I do not believe that this will get us anywhere.
However I am interested in talking about the Natural Revolution. This is why I'm here, and this is why I've been explaining myself on this forum to anyone who is willing to listen.
If you have no interest in this discussion, that is your choice and I have no say in the matter. That is a law of nature. However, I hope that you can find some spark of interest and discuss it with me.
Since you belong to an organization, which I have studied a lot, and since you seem to be confused about what I mean by nature, I have focused in on defining this point more clearly. This is the purpose of my question about whether or not you believe in external controls as a mechanism of true worship and understanding of the Way.
I hope that we can put aside debates and talk about the Way only. Can we agree to discuss this topic only, and to ask and answer each other's questions only in the context of the Way?
Here are two questions you can ask yourself to start with, which can get you to contemplate the meaning of the term "nature": "Is sin natural? Does Jesus, who teaches the Way, teach something that is natural or something unnatural?"
Linked that those questions is the first question I asked you: "Is external control part of the Way?"
My stand is clear, that sin is unnatural, but to love God is the only natural, acceptable way - the Way. So Jesus teaches nature, but Babylon lies about nature, and tries to divide our people against nature, thereby destroying our natural culture and tradition. In nature there is no external control, but Babylon seeks to instill this, to enslave our people in confusion.
So I have stated my case clearly, in English. I am also willing to explain any point. If you have any questions to ask, I am willing to deal with them. Can you give my statement an impartial hearing? Are you willing to try, or not? If not, that is your choice, and if so I applaud that choice. Please just let me know. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Virbate'
| Virbate wrote: | | The truth is that we can go back and forth forever talking about who did what to whom, and who is wrong. I do not believe that this will get us anywhere. |
I agree this isn't the most productive use of time. You however, made some pretty drastic statements to my replies, yet cannot recognize how you "shut down" the conversation. This is a main reason I choose not to discuss your philosophy. For me to alter that decision I need to see reasonablness. I believe you need to face your actions and make adjustments. You seem unwilling to do so.
Please answer the final question in bold.
| Virbate wrote: |
Next time you don't understand, don't answer. |
And when I didn't answer, what did you do?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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