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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Both myself on page 2 and Virbate on page 5 gave sufficient answers regarding luvnlife's position. Asking the answered question again may not get a responce.
She can come back, but she cannot humble herself enough to do so.
2 Cor 7:10 For sadness in a godly way makes for repentance to salvation that is not to be regretted; but the sadness of the world produces death. 11 For, look! this very thing, YOUR being saddened in a godly way, what a great earnestness it produced in YOU, yes, clearing of yourselves, yes, indignation, yes, fear, yes, longing, yes, zeal, yes, righting of the wrong! In every respect YOU demonstrated yourselves to be chaste in this matter.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: |
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Virbate,
You made an attempt to answer the questions in bold, but the answers are not satisfactory.
The question was: In using a vague term, is it not arrogant to demand all people view that term exactly as you do?
Your answer was: (c) If I call something by its correct name (eg, I see a horse and call it "horse") that is not arrogant. If I insist that a horse must be called a horse, and that a donkey cannot be called by that name, then this is not arrogant.
That isn't a logical answer to the question. You basically didn't answer the question at all, but nullified the meaning of the question by saying the term "external systems of control" is as straight forward as the word "horse". That doesn't answer the question, but is an emotional attempt to defend your position.
I ask you again: In using a vague term, is it not arrogant to demand all people view that term exactly as you do?
What is the logical reply? Step back from the previous posts and simply answer the question, not breaking it up to alter the idea.
--
The next question was: Since I don't know your understanding of the term "external systems of control", is not my statement logical?
Namely: If you consider the first century Christian congregation and the Bible as "external systems of control", then yes, JW's are the same. Both the law the Israelites were to follow and Christianity results from taking in knowledge from outside sources, not from within themselves, and making that knowledge a part of you.
Your answer was: I asked you a straight question. Your reaction was not a response at all, but an evasion.
You are simply refusing to acknowledge that I might view that term differently then you do.
| Virbate wrote: | | The only logical response on your part, given that you were unclear about the question, is to ask: "Virbate, what do you mean by this?" |
I don't view this as an option with you. I have done this in the past with you and your "clarifications" were no clearer to me. One of the main reasons I don't care to discuss your philosophy.
Take a step back, and understand that I don't claim prescribe to your philosophy, nor do I claim to understand what you have said regarding it. If you can do that then answer the question.
Since I don't know your understanding of the term "external systems of control", is not my statement logical? Namely: If you consider the first century Christian congregation and the Bible as "external systems of control", then yes, JW's are the same. Both the law the Israelites were to follow and Christianity results from taking in knowledge from outside sources, not from within themselves, and making that knowledge a part of you.
What is the logical nondefensive reply?
--
Finally, you did not address your contradiction at all.
| Virbate wrote: | If so, I would have contradicted myself and lost ground.
| TBax wrote: | You did. My last two questions address a contradiction.
Answer the questions I put in bold in my last post, and if you prove yourself logical and reasonable we can continue. |
Okay. I'll answer these two now (more explicitly this time), and wait for the rest. |
Since you totally missed them I will place them here, directly below, for you to answer. I will only ask the one most important question so you don't have to comment about you behavior.
| Virbate wrote: | | Next time you don't understand, don't answer. |
And when I didn't answer, what did you do?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
Both myself on page 2 and Virbate on page 5 gave sufficient answers regarding luvnlife's position. Asking the answered question again may not get a responce.
She can come back, but she cannot humble herself enough to do so.
2 Cor 7:10 For sadness in a godly way makes for repentance to salvation that is not to be regretted; but the sadness of the world produces death. 11 For, look! this very thing, YOUR being saddened in a godly way, what a great earnestness it produced in YOU, yes, clearing of yourselves, yes, indignation, yes, fear, yes, longing, yes, zeal, yes, righting of the wrong! In every respect YOU demonstrated yourselves to be chaste in this matter. |
Hi Tbax. I just want to follow up a little bit on what you said here. I went back to page 2 where you said these Scriptures regarding luvnlife:
2 Cor 7:10 For sadness in a godly way makes for repentance to salvation that is not to be regretted; but the sadness of the world produces death. 11 For, look! this very thing, YOUR being saddened in a godly way, what a great earnestness it produced in YOU, yes, clearing of yourselves, yes, indignation, yes, fear, yes, longing, yes, zeal, yes, righting of the wrong! In every respect YOU demonstrated yourselves to be chaste in this matter.
You seem to keep forgetting something.
1 Cor 5:12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
Also:
11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.
Luvnlife can corroborate but it doesn't appear to me that Luvnlife was kicked out because of being wicked like a fornicator, greedy person, idolater, reviler, drunkard, or extortioner. It doesn't appear to me that some sort of internal investigation board found her guilty of any of said crimes and canceled her membership. She left because she didn't agree with the JWs anymore.
Arent you going far over the top labeling her as such wicked individuals when all she did was resign her membership for personal reasons? Isn't that slander? |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Ryck,
I was addressing different points with Zathrus on page 2.
The points are seperated starting with Zathrus' quotes.
I first discussed the luvnlife question, then the second point is about how the JW view is scriptural regarding what he called "an unhealthy dysfunctional environment." The first century Christians were to practice what Paul wrote, thus Zathrus' censure of JW's for this is a censure of the first century Christians.
The way for people who disassociate themselves and people who are disfellowshipped- to come back is the same.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
Both myself on page 2 and Virbate on page 5 gave sufficient answers regarding luvnlife's position. Asking the answered question again may not get a responce. |
I think you're referring to this:
| TBax wrote: | Luvnlife is the one who decided to disassociate herself. That was her choice. Leaving the truth is a serious thing. If she truly wanted to come back, she could have. But she couldn't accept the grief of discipline.  |
| Virbate wrote: | | If you hear the word and join the church, then are sent packing, you are categorized as one who left the word behind. So you're in a different class than the other people in your church, who have not been shown to have heard the word. |
Is that right?
I took the liberty of highlighting the phrases I think you and Virbate are trying to say it really boils down to with regard to someone who leaves of their own volition. They have left the truth. In the eyes of the Witnesses I suppose this makes them an enemy of the truth, a deceiver even. One of the antichrists who "went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."?
Your perception of them, as you and Virbate have pointed out, is formed by your opinion that the Witness organization is the one and only way of salvation, and by the assumption that all who leave do so not because they may be going through a confusing time in life and are straying, but because they are in league with Satan as enemies of the one and only truth.
Shunning Luvnlife and others who have left will not make them want to return. And as far as I'm concerned that's not a bad thing. You may claim that the door is always open, they can return and face the "grief of discipline" whenever they wish, but the treatment they receive would give them no reason to want to rejoin the religion.
What about this?
Galatians 6
| Quote: | | 1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. |
Does this only apply once one decides to face the "grief of discipline"? If so, why are they still spoken of as being overtaken in a fault? Why should those who are spiritual be worried about being tempted?
What about this?
Hebrews 12:13
| Quote: | | And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. |
This speaks of reconciliation and healing, not separation, exclusivism and shunning. Though as I have mentioned, I'm doubtful how much healing the "grief of discipline" whatever that is, would bring.
What about Jesus' parables about the shepherd going after one lamb that went astray, or the woman searching her whole house for one coin? Granted, I believe these apply to the lost of the Gentiles, but many religious folks, maybe the Witnesses too, apply them to Christians.
The Watchtower site says the most notable characteristic that one will notice among the Witnesses is love. Is it just for those who love them? Is that love just for their group? That's commendable that the Witnesses believe themselves to be such loving people. I'm just not really seeing it.
So is anyone who leaves assumed to be an antichrist? Someone actively working to undermine the one and only truth? And therefore there's no point treating them as simply straying and needing comfort and guidance? Why does it feel wierd to even talk about the Witnesses as being any comfort or offering any guidance?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | is formed by your opinion that the Witness organization is the one and only way of salvation, |
Absolutly. If I didn't believe that I would not belong to this organization.
Gal 6:1 Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, YOU who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness, as you each keep an eye on yourself, for fear you also may be tempted.
Heb 12:13 and keep making straight paths for YOUR feet, that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather that it may be healed.
What luvnlife did and what these are talking about are 2 different things.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Shunning Luvnlife and others who have left will not make them want to return. |
People return all the time. Some who refuse discipline will not.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | You made an attempt to answer the questions in bold, but the answers are not satisfactory.
I ask you again: In using a vague term, is it not arrogant to demand all people view that term exactly as you do? |
Vague is a subjective term. It's vague to you, not to me. Other people have also understood it. Also, I am not insisting that you view it as I do. If you don't see what I'm saying then it is perfectly acceptable for you to ask until you get it. I only insist that you either: (a) Admit that you don't understand and therefore that you need to ask, or, (b) View it as I do. It is not acceptable for you to make a guess about what I might mean, and respond to that. Either you know what I mean or you don't, and either position is acceptable. But guessing and responding without understanding is not. So to answer your question specifically, of course it would be arrogant and foolish for a person to use vague terminology and demand others to view it as they do. I would never approve of such a thing.
| TBax wrote: | The next question was: Since I don't know your understanding of the term "external systems of control", is not my statement logical?
Namely: If you consider the first century Christian congregation and the Bible as "external systems of control", then yes, JW's are the same. Both the law the Israelites were to follow and Christianity results from taking in knowledge from outside sources, not from within themselves, and making that knowledge a part of you.
Your answer was: I asked you a straight question. Your reaction was not a response at all, but an evasion.
You are simply refusing to acknowledge that I might view that term differently then you do. |
There are many acceptable ways to use certain terms. Mine is an acceptable way. So why not just ask what I mean, and let's move ahead? Surely I have explained now, so let's just move ahead. You still haven't answered the question, but now we're caught up in another tangent. So I'm still waiting.
| TBax wrote: | | Virbate wrote: | | The only logical response on your part, given that you were unclear about the question, is to ask: "Virbate, what do you mean by this?" |
I don't view this as an option with you. I have done this in the past with you and your "clarifications" were no clearer to me. One of the main reasons I don't care to discuss your philosophy.
Take a step back, and understand that I don't claim prescribe to your philosophy, nor do I claim to understand what you have said regarding it. If you can do that then answer the question.
Since I don't know your understanding of the term "external systems of control", is not my statement logical? Namely: If you consider the first century Christian congregation and the Bible as "external systems of control", then yes, JW's are the same. Both the law the Israelites were to follow and Christianity results from taking in knowledge from outside sources, not from within themselves, and making that knowledge a part of you. |
I understand that you haven't grasped my point yet, therefore are not in a position to subscribe to it. Nor are you in a position to reject it, since you don't know what it is. Since you do not understand my terms in the question, then the statement you made is not a response to the question. You have simply created an irrelevant condition, and explained your views about that condition.
The whole point is that we need to start at the beginning, to avoid going around in endless circles. I have started the ball rolling by stating that I stand for nature, and the natural order. If you look through my posts, you'll see that I have explained what this means.
I am happy to explain exactly what I mean, as I do not insist on you understanding something that seems vague because of your perspective. But are you willing to conduct a proper investigation? If you feel that it's not worth your time to investigate and ask questions to get to the bottom of what I'm trying to communicate, then there is no point in proceeding.
However, I hope that you can consider it worth your while to hear what I have to say, and ask a reasonable amount of questions to see if you can understand it. What I have been saying is not difficult - a child can understand. But the key is to step back, slow down, and listen.
Last edited by Virbate on Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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TBax wrote:
| Quote: | | Luvnlife is the one who decided to disassociate herself. That was her choice. Leaving the truth is a serious thing. If she truly wanted to come back, she could have. But she couldn't accept the grief of discipline. |
I know that some things that the JW's teach are not true. I know the way JW's choose to treat others and divide families is not in keeping with what Jesus taught.
I discovered the truth and that's why I have never returned.
I don't know it all but I do know that I am much closer to the truth now than I ever was when I was a JW.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | I don't know it all but I do know that I am much closer to the truth now than I ever was when I was a JW. |
Not hard to believe at all. I'm glad that God has led you where He has, and I know He will keep leading you into all truth.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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TBax,
Thanks for your response earlier.
I knew I was forgetting something. Can you comment on this?
James 5:19-20 | Quote: | 19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. |
James seems to be quite clear here that the one in error has left the truth. James even describes him/her as a sinner, in need of being reconverted! His/her soul is in danger of death.
Yet James says that a Christian might convert such a person - a sinner who has left the truth. How would a Witness go about converting such a person if they can't even talk to them? And I'm not just asking how can a Witness communicate their religious beliefs to convince this wayward sinner. I mean how can a Witness expect to have any influence leading this sinner back to the truth and to what is good if they can't even relate to the person in ways that normal, healthy people typically relate to each other?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Virbate,
Without an honest effort to reply logically without getting defensive, I will not continue with you. Take care. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among YOU is misled from the truth and another turns him back, 20 know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
These were mislead from the truth, and then corrected. Not people who consciously deny the truth and reject it. 
Similar to Gal:
Gal 6:1 Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, YOU who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness, as you each keep an eye on yourself, for fear you also may be tempted.
She is welcome to come back, but she doesn't want it. Those scriptures do not apply.
FYI People return all the time. Some who refuse discipline will not.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Virbate,
Without an honest effort to reply logically without getting defensive, I will not continue with you. Take care. |
Does anyone know what he's looking for that I haven't provided? When was I defensive and when did I fail to reply logically? Please help us! |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among YOU is misled from the truth and another turns him back, 20 know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. |
Then JW's are sinning because what you are doing is turning many away. I hope you have a back up plan for covering that 'multitude of sins' referred to in the verse you quoted.
| TBax wrote: | These were mislead from the truth, and then corrected. Not people who consciously deny the truth and reject it.
Similar to Gal:
Gal 6:1 Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, YOU who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness, as you each keep an eye on yourself, for fear you also may be tempted. |
Tempted?? Tempted to do what? I live a pretty mild life. Sorry to disappoint you, TBax.
| TBax wrote: | | She is welcome to come back, but she doesn't want it. Those scriptures do not apply. |
So why did you quote them? Quote some that apply to me.
| TBax wrote: | | FYI People return all the time. Some who refuse discipline will not. |
If I did need to be disciplined, the JW's are not qualified to administer that discipline. I have been disciplined unjustly for long enough by your church.
Do you understand that you are falsely accusing me? You are standing in judgment of me, yet you don't even have a clue as to why. I worship the same God as you, Zath and Ryck and Nobby do. Only difference is, your understanding of God is a little off. He is not the hateful God you are making him out to be.
Which is it? Do you accuse someone without having at least two credible witnesses to corroborate wrong doing? Isn't that why Jesus was crucified? Doesn't the bible teach us not to judge? Does it teach us to be compassionate, charitable and forgiving? Does it encourage us to love our enemies? I'm not even your enemy and yet, look at the despicable way you treat your sister.
It's up to you what you do with the knowledge you have and the lessons you learned from our Lord. I hope some day you learn to think for yourself instead of letting the Witnesses do all your thinking and decision-making for you.
Still praying for you.
Love, Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | FYI People return all the time. Some who refuse discipline will not. |
I have no doubt that some do. I've seen it happen in some of the controlling churches and ministries I have been involved with in my life. The more secure and sure of their own identity do not return.
TBax, just what is this discipline that awaits those who return?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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