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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: Smokers church given official warning |
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| Quote: | Cafe Lindeboom in Alkmaar which has signed up to the One and Universal Smokers Church of God was given a formal warning by health inspectors for breaking no-smoking rules at the weekend.
Owner Cor Busch told news agency ANP that he had no intention of banning smoking.
‘We smoke because of our beliefs and we will keep doing it until a judge explains why we cannot,’ he told reporters. Fines for breaking the rules can mount up to €2,400, ANP says. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Where was the group spending the weekend? Was it out-of-doors? Are there any laws banning smoking due to fire danger? Were they indoors and is there a clean-air act enforced in the area? Are they renting/leasing the building and did they sign an agreement not to smoke? In other words, are they following every letter of the law or any other agreement they may have made with the landlord or insurance agent?
Just wondering....
Luv
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ChristianWoman1
Labrador
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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good questions Luv...intersting post.
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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The Netherlands instituted a country-wide smoking ban on the 1st of July for restaurants, cafés and coffee shops.
Cafés Lindeboom is, as its name implies, a café. "The One and Universal Smokers Church of God" was created entirely to get around smoking bans. They claim to believe in a "holy trinity of smoke, fire and ash."
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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So let me get this straight, it is not really a religion per se, just a political group who is using the laws about religion to gain access to "legal smoking in a cafe."
Sounds like the Netherlands never learned from the U.S. prohibition laws and why they were finally over turned.
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Most in the USA are under the same restrictions. This doesn't really have anything to do with prohibition laws.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
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So the laws on the books here in the states are somehow not prohibition laws? I think you're overlooking the facts.
Prohibition laws prohibit behavior whether its drinking alcohol or smoking they're still prohibition laws. The primary argument against drinking was a health argument, just like smoking.
BTW I have never smoked. But the prohibition still is the wrong way to deal with the issue and will fail to eliminate the problem and create other problems along the way.
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | So the laws on the books here in the states are somehow not prohibition laws? I think you're overlooking the facts.
Prohibition laws prohibit behavior whether its drinking alcohol or smoking they're still prohibition laws. The primary argument against drinking was a health argument, just like smoking.
BTW I have never smoked. But the prohibition still is the wrong way to deal with the issue and will fail to eliminate the problem and create other problems along the way. |
The blatant difference between smoking and alcohol is that the smoke in the air is not just a health hazard to the smoker. It can cause health problems for non-smokers who may be in the same room.
Drinking alcohol can damage your liver and kill your brain cells but is not going to create health problems for those around the drinker.
Second-hand smoke does cause problems for asthmatics, people with lung problems and people who are allergic to the smoke and is known to cause cancer.
Luv
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | And truth be told… By applying the same “public health” threat and economic arguments against alcohol, I can’t quite figure out why people would push so diligently for smoking bans while allowing the public menace of alcohol to plague our society.
I decided that objectivity was better than actually looking at data from possibly skewed sources, so I looked at the CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Reports (MMWR’s) as they provide some very useful insight that advocacy groups tend to ignore.
So, according to the CDC’s report on smoking-related deaths, there were 438,000 annual deaths attributable to smoking. What is much more interesting, however, is the years of potential life lost (YPLL) which came out to be 5.5 million years. That comes out to roughly 12.6 years lost per death.
Looking over to the report on alcohol-related deaths, there were 75,766 annual deaths attributed to alcohol. There were also 2.3 million YPLL, which comes out to 30.4 years lost per death.
So what does that tell us? It tells us that, on average, alcohol kills more young people. Even more interesting was the fact that the number of deaths resulting from - let’s call it passive drinking - is at least equal to, if not greater than - the deaths attributed to passive smoking. So, in other words, there were more “innocent” people killed in accidents and violent acts related to alcohol than people who supposedly died as a result of secondhand smoke.
But wait! It’s doesn’t stop there. This just covers alcohol-related deaths. What if we factor in other crimes?
According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, of the roughly 1 million violent crimes (murder, rape and sexual assault, robbery, and assault) committed in 2002, 30% (300,000) involved an offender who had been drinking. If we take out of that the 5,963 homicides as reported by the CDC, that still leaves 294,037 violent crimes that didn’t result in a death. This isn’t even taking into account property crimes.
According to the California ADP, nationally there were over 300,000 injuries from alcohol-related collisions and there were more than 1.5 million DUI arrests.
And cost? According to an outstanding comprehensive report from “Streetdrugs University” (a group of educators specializing in drug and alcohol training):
* Lost earnings: $69.2 billion, of which 30%-35% ($20.76-$24.22 billion) is passed along to the government.
* Social Welfare: $693 million, or 3%-4% of total government welfare administration.
* Motor Vehicle Crashes: $13.6 billion including:
o $3.8 billion in roadway damage shouldered by state a local government
o $3.1 billion in insurance administration
o $3.8 billion in automobile damages
o $2.9 billion in legal and court costs, of which $580 million was shouldered by state and local government
* Crime Losses: $1 billion including $427 million in property crime
* Incarceration Costs: $2.8 billion (140,000 incarcerations * $20,000/year incarceration cost) plus an assumed loss of $1.68 billion in lost tax revenue (140,000 incarcerations * estimated potential $12,000 tax loss)
And according to the Marin Institute, annual health care expenditures for alcohol-related problems total $22.5 billion. According to Wikipedia, 27% of the population is on public health care and 15.8% is uninsured. By those numbers, we can estimate that the public absorbs approximately $9.63 billion of alcohol-related health costs.
To bring this all into perspective, going back to the Marin Institute and the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, the estimated aggregate annual cost of alcohol is $175.9 billion compared to $137 billion for smokers. I’ll spare you the math and tell you that it’s a difference of $38.9 billion.
So with all of this information in mind, why not ban alcohol? The economic cost is significant, the non-drinking deaths associated with alcohol is significant, the amount of crime associated with alcohol is massive…
If we were to take the same standards applied to smoking and apply them to alcohol, we should have banned alcohol without a second thought. Not only is the public burden significant, but the burden of evidence is much stronger when it comes to alcohol as opposed to smoking.
As a public menace, alcohol far and away outweighs smoking - yet smoking is under siege while alcohol is still acceptable. Why is this? What is it about smoking that drives people into such a fury and drives them to force excessive government control upon us (prohibition come to mind?) without giving it a second thought? After all, the same people pushing for the abolition of tobacco are more likely to be killed in an alcohol-related incident than by secondhand smoke.
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http://arclightzero.wordpress.com/2007/12/30/is-it-time-to-ban-alcohol-too/
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | BTW I have never smoked. But the prohibition still is the wrong way to deal with the issue and will fail to eliminate the problem and create other problems along the way. |
Smoking is still legal in the Netherlands, it's just illegal to smoke in certain places.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | 45degreeN wrote: | | BTW I have never smoked. But the prohibition still is the wrong way to deal with the issue and will fail to eliminate the problem and create other problems along the way. |
Smoking is still legal in the Netherlands, it's just illegal to smoke in certain places. |
Minor correction, the Netherlands' smoking ban only applies to tobacco, BTW.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7482648.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7477181.stm
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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my soul rejoices in my God...
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Nicotine is quite a bit more dangerous than THC, especially since smoking weed isn't at all dangerous (except that it might get you in trouble in places it's not legal)
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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The only bit of that that appears actually dangerous is the heart attack issue--which I'd imagine isn't actually that big of a deal since all you really want to do for an hour is chill out anyway.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Effects on the Lungs
Numerous studies have shown marijuana smoke to contain carcinogens and to be an irritant to the lungs. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke. Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which further increases the lungs’ exposure to carcinogenic smoke. Marijuana smokers show dysregulated growth of epithelial cells in their lung tissue, which could lead to cancer;8 however, a recent case-controlled study found no positive associations between marijuana use and lung, upper respiratory, or upper digestive tract cancers.9 Thus, the link between marijuana smoking and these cancers remains unsubstantiated at this time.
Nonetheless, marijuana smokers can have many of the same respiratory problems as tobacco smokers, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illness, a heightened risk of lung infections, and a greater tendency toward obstructed airways. A study of 450 individuals found that people who smoke marijuana frequently but do not smoke tobacco have more health problems and miss more days of work than nonsmokers.10 Many of the extra sick days among the marijuana smokers in the study were for respiratory illnesses. |
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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