 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
To paraphrase Paul he learned to adapt to any and all circumstances and that is where I'm guessing we should be. In fact most of the OT prophets were poor with the main exception of Jeremiah who was the uncle to a king.
Many of the members of Paul's missionary churches spread around the empire were primarily upper iddle income and not poor. The "poor" were the "Ebionites"who lived in Jersualem and they lived in a commune like setting sharing everything.
In fact the gallery of faith In Hebrews 11 is filled with people who never received their promises in this lifetime, so even if God might have made promises to our health and wealth there is no guarantee that it will be in this lifetime. It might be just not guaranteed. God's sovereignty trumps any other promise that might exist.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Fantastic point. Let's talk more about those promises.
What are they?
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with 45, it is not rich or poor, there are examples in scripture of both. Our satisfaction should be found in Christ. Who cares what people in general, think christians should be, anyway? Care about what God thinks.
eleven: | Quote: | | We are supposed to be the envy of the world. |
true, but not in a material sense. If people envy us because of riches, they pursue riches. Then they find that riches did not bring the peace, the joy and the happiness they were looking for. remember the camel and the eye of the needle?
_________________
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Eleven said:
| Quote: | Ok, so what you both are telling me is, Jesus had no home to go to at the end of the day.
Where then, did He sleep?
He was also in need of food, water, and clothing, a place to wash.
Where did these things come from?
Seems to me we are ignoring the basic human needs of
Jesus. Didn't He have any? |
I will entertain the possibility in my mind that Jesus did have a 'home base' but I believe he probably often stayed with friends and there were probably many times that disciples welcomed him in to their homes as their guest.
I don't believe Jesus was just 'taking' from these families though. I believe that with his talent as a carpenter he probably did do things for families to repay their hospitality.
Eleven said:
| Quote: | Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with a Christian having money. I wish I was one of them.
Did God intend for His followers to be poor, suffering and struggling all our lives? I don' t think so. |
I guess I kind of think it's funny that you assume that if someone is poor (financially) they are suffering and struggling all their lives. I don't think one is necessarily synonymous with the other. I have been poor and happy. I have never been rich but I have had a little money here and there in my life. It didn't make me miserable and it didn't make me any less happy.
I don't think there is anything wrong with a Christian having a little money though. As long as the money does not become a major focus in your life, you keep your priorities in line and always remember what is important.
The thing about money for some people, though, is the more you have, the more 'things' you think you need, the more you spend and, ultimately, the harder you work to make more money. If you're working more, you have less time for what really matters. It can become a vicious circle.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JonMarie wrote: | | Who cares what people in general, think christians should be, anyway? Care about what God thinks. |
Because Christians and Unbelievers alike condemn Christians who don't fit the "poor" lifestyle, and I'm curious to know on what they base this belief.
| luvnlife wrote: |
I guess I kind of think it's funny that you assume that if someone is poor (financially) they are suffering and struggling all their lives. |
I didn't say that. I have been "poor" all my life as well, and I can say that I am a very happy person.
| luvnlife wrote: |
I don't think there is anything wrong with a Christian having a little money though. |
What about a Christian having millions?
Would that be ok?
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
eleven: | Quote: | | Jesus was a man that was respected in the community, and never wanted for anything. If He ever had extra, He gave it away. |
If He (Jesus) had extra? He gave it away? Jesus, God in the flesh, extra? All the resources of the world are His, to do with whatever He wills. Jesus was not a beggar and certainly not dependant on anyone except God the Father. Besides to say if Jesus had extra, He gave it away, implies that after His own needs were met, He gave away the over abundance. This could not be true in that Jesus was a servant and would not put Himself before others.
Matt 23:11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
If one is a true believer, than all ones money and earthly possessions belong to God anyway, and we are merely stewards.
eleven: | Quote: | For some reason people in general think that Christians, if they are "real" Christians are doomed to a life of poverty because after all, Jesus was a poor man.
What nonsense! |
James 2:5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
_________________
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Last edited by JonMarie on Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JonMarie wrote: |
If He (Jesus) had extra? He gave it away? Jesus, God in the flesh, extra? All the resources of the world are His, to with whatever He wills. Jesus was not a beggar and certainly not dependant on anyone except God the Father. Besides to say if Jesus had extra, He gave it away, implies that after His own needs were met, He gave away the over abundance. This could not be true in that Jesus was a servant and would not put Himself before others. |
Yet He did on several occasions. The thing is He never did it selfishly.
Matthew 26
6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."
10Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. 12When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
Matthew 17
The Temple Tax
24After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
25"Yes, he does," he replied.
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?"
26"From others," Peter answered.
"Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. 27"But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."
| JonMarie wrote: |
If one is a true believer, than all ones money and earthly possessions belong to God anyway, and we are merely stewards. |
I agree. So why then don't we aim to be stewards of much instead of a little?
eleven: | Quote: | For some reason people in general think that Christians, if they are "real" Christians are doomed to a life of poverty because after all, Jesus was a poor man.
What nonsense! |
Really?
So if a preacher pulls up to the front of his church in a Mercedes, why do the people raise an eyebrow, but if he pulls up in a old station wagon, that's ok?
(Sidenote here: I am neither a preacher, nor do I own a Mercedes.  )
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
11 said: | Quote: | Really?
So if a preacher pulls up to the front of his church in a Mercedes, why do the people raise an eyebrow, but if he pulls up in a old station wagon, that's ok? |
A preacher is an overseer of the whole congregation. There are some that may have no problem with him living high off the hog if they are secure and steady in their walk with God.
But a preacher presides over those who are poor in spirit and weak in their walk also. If a preacher is doing something that is A) sending the wrong message to parishioners or B) causing them to lose their spiritual footing, he may be doing the wrong thing even if there is nothing, per se, wrong with what he is doing.
There are also those who may wonder if they are being taken advantage of. If they are paying 10% tithe and even more and they are struggling and their preacher is living the good life they may (rightfully in some cases) believe that their tithe and other offerings are funding the preachers lavish lifestyle.
There are biblical references that relate to this issue:
Romans 14:13, 14, 19-21 (KJV)
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
1 Cor 8:9-13 (NIV)
9But you must see to it that this right of yours does not become a stumbling block for those who are weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you, who knows better, eating in an idol's temple, he will be encouraged to eat what has been offered to idols, won't he? 11In that case, the weak brother for whom the Messiah died is ruined by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak con¬sciences, you are sinning against the Messiah. 13Therefore, if food that I eat [d] causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, in order to keep my brother from stumbling
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
eleven: | Quote: | | I agree. So why then don't we aim to be stewards of much instead of a little? |
Matt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
mammon is the pursuit of wealth.
Matthew 6: 31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
_________________
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
eleven: | Quote: | Really?
So if a preacher pulls up to the front of his church in a Mercedes, why do the people raise an eyebrow, but if he pulls up in a old station wagon, that's ok? |
In our culture a mercedes is not just a means of transportation, it is a status symbol.
Matt 6:27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Luke 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
_________________
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JonMarie wrote: | eleven: | Quote: | | I agree. So why then don't we aim to be stewards of much instead of a little? |
Matt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
mammon is the pursuit of wealth.
Matthew 6: 31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. |
I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JonMarie wrote: | eleven: | Quote: | Really?
So if a preacher pulls up to the front of his church in a Mercedes, why do the people raise an eyebrow, but if he pulls up in a old station wagon, that's ok? |
In our culture a mercedes is not just a means of transportation, it is a status symbol.
|
| luvnlife wrote: |
A preacher is an overseer of the whole congregation. There are some that may have no problem with him living high off the hog if they are secure and steady in their walk with God.
But a preacher presides over those who are poor in spirit and weak in their walk also. If a preacher is doing something that is A) sending the wrong message to parishioners or B) causing them to lose their spiritual footing, he may be doing the wrong thing even if there is nothing, per se, wrong with what he is doing.
There are also those who may wonder if they are being taken advantage of. If they are paying 10% tithe and even more and they are struggling and their preacher is living the good life they may (rightfully in some cases) believe that their tithe and other offerings are funding the preachers lavish lifestyle.
There are biblical references that relate to this issue: |
Ok, let me stop laughing long enough to ask you both a question..........hold on, I'm getting there....
The original question that started this whole thread was, Was Jesus a poor man?
Over and over again, we have seen that no, Jesus was not a rag tag prophet that slept in the dirt, but a respected man who had many friends.
Jesus never wanted for anything. He depended on the Father for all His needs, and the Father provided.
In the event Jesus had more than He needed (Temple Tax) He gave it away. So it is evident that God the Father always provided for whatever Jesus needed for the day. He never had to do without, but He never had more than He needed. Isn't that the message?
So my question was, why then are we as Christians suppose be viewed by the world as poor? Jesus wasn't poor, why should we be?
Now look at your answers.
You betray your own beliefs!!!
If a preacher pulls up to a church in a Mercedes, that is somehow contrary to what we as Christians are supposed to do!!!
But if he pulls up in an old beat up station wagon, that is ok.
See, this is what I asked in the beginning - why are Christians supposed to be "poor"?
Who is to say that the Mercedes wasn't given to this man as a gift?
Who is to say that that car wasn't donated?
Who is to say that this preacher didn't inherit this car from an ailing parent?
But immediately, the two of you jumped to the conclusion that this preacher was being unscriptural.
And that was the entire point of this thread.
People assume that Christians are SUPPOSED to live a life or poverty or they are NOT true Christians.
Baloney!!!
Thanks for proving my point.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | People assume that Christians are SUPPOSED to live a life or poverty or they are NOT true Christians. |
NO NO NO
Not a life of poverty but of moderation in all things recognizing that our wealth is given to us by God and according to His purposes not our own.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Moderation and good stewardship.
I would have problems with the idea of a Christian with wealth if that 'Christian's' focus is on the acquisition and maintenance of that wealth and not on the things of God.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 45degreeN wrote: | | Quote: | | People assume that Christians are SUPPOSED to live a life or poverty or they are NOT true Christians. |
NO NO NO
Not a life of poverty but of moderation in all things recognizing that our wealth is given to us by God and according to His purposes not our own. |
| RevJP wrote: |
Moderation and good stewardship.
I would have problems with the idea of a Christian with wealth if that 'Christian's' focus is on the acquisition and maintenance of that wealth and not on the things of God. |
I agree with both of you. But let's go back to the question.
The preacher pulls up in a Mercedes.
Somehow this is viewed as "unChristian".
Why???
Let's try another route:
Let's say I am a multi-millionaire.
I contribute to many charities, I start new charitable foundations, I give to the poor.
Yet I also drive an Audi, live in a house that is completely paid for, and ..........I don't know........own horses.
Am I less of a Christian?
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
