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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
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 Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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What do you suppose became of the money made by the work Jesus did as a carpenter? How much would one pay for such a piece today if it were auctioned on e-bay? BTW anyone know where the ark of the covenant might be?
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Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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ChristianWoman1
Labrador
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: |
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huh..interesting thread eleven.
Jesus was not some rich man [with money] who just sat around and expected people to serve him...we see that He humbled Himself and hung with the poor, the lost. He truely is an example to us that God provides all our needs..not to worry about them. When did Jesus ever worry about food or clothing?? never.
As for your question Jon, I would imagine Jesus used only what he needed from his wages of carpentry and gave the rest to His mother. 
Who would think any differently? and why?
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | | What do you suppose became of the money made by the work Jesus did as a carpenter? How much would one pay for such a piece today if it were auctioned on e-bay? BTW anyone know where the ark of the covenant might be? |
Yeah. It's in my living room, and NO, it's not for sale!
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: |
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This whole discussion came about because there seems to be a belief out there that Christian people and money should never be in the same room together.
In other words, Jesus was a poor man, so to follow Him we should all be poor as well. Is that true?
There also seems to be a tone out there, that if a person is successful financially, then they are not really a Christian.
Now take this scripture:
Luke 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
If Jesus was poor, you'll get one meaning out of this, but if Jesus wasn't poor, then it takes on a whole new meaning, see what I mean?
So in order to understand His teachings better, I am attempting to learn more about how Jesus lived here on earth.
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | This whole discussion came about because there seems to be a belief out there that Christian people and money should never be in the same room together.
In other words, Jesus was a poor man, so to follow Him we should all be poor as well. Is that true?
There also seems to be a tone out there, that if a person is successful financially, then they are not really a Christian. |
Try telling that to a "seed-faith" TV evangelical preacher.
| Quote: | Now take this scripture:
Luke 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
If Jesus was poor, you'll get one meaning out of this, but if Jesus wasn't poor, then it takes on a whole new meaning, see what I mean?
So in order to understand His teachings better, I am attempting to learn more about how Jesus lived here on earth. |
Jesus,was a tradesman like his father Joseph, which put him in the middle class of Jewish society. As an itinerant rabbi (teacher), he was one of many who usually relied on donations to survive.
The average Jews were dirt poor, plus they were heavily taxed by Rome, and the priests made sure that they got their ten percent, as well.
Anyone new in town was usually well received in the synagogues and town square, since it was the only method of finding out what was going on elsewhere. This included being invited into homes for meals.
Jesus probably received the greatest hostility in Jerusalem, and around the Temple, from the priests, Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees whom he castigated on many occasions for their hypocracy. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | eleven wrote: | This whole discussion came about because there seems to be a belief out there that Christian people and money should never be in the same room together.
In other words, Jesus was a poor man, so to follow Him we should all be poor as well. Is that true?
There also seems to be a tone out there, that if a person is successful financially, then they are not really a Christian. |
Try telling that to a "seed-faith" TV evangelical preacher.
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NOW we are getting somewhere! Thanks Pete.
That's is precisely what I am talking about. How can we follow Jesus if we don't know how He lived? We know, and continue to educate ourselves on what He taught, but how did He live Himself?
Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with a Christian having money. I wish I was one of them.
Did God intend for His followers to be poor, suffering and struggling all our lives? I don' t think so.
| Pete wrote: |
Jesus,was a tradesman like his father Joseph, which put him in the middle class of Jewish society. As an itinerant rabbi (teacher), he was one of many who usually relied on donations to survive. |
Ok let me ask you. And understand, I'm not saying you are wrong. But how do you know he depended on donations to survive?
Donations by whom? If the Jewish culture was traditionally poor, who would be donating to Jesus?
| Pete wrote: |
Jesus probably received the greatest hostility in Jerusalem, and around the Temple, from the priests, Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees whom he castigated on many occasions for their hypocracy. |
But how could this be? Jesus was seen by the Pharisees as a threat, and Jesus pulled no punches about calling them hypocrits - in public no less! That is humiliating.
Why in the world would the Pharisees then be hospitable to Him?
I don't know. Nor am I claiming to know the answers. I'm searching like everyone else.
This is a journey and I'm asking you all for your help.
But it's interesting to see what people believe.
Where did you get this "picture" of Jesus?
Is it in scripture, or literature, or someplace else?
Or are we all just framing in our minds who Jesus was?
Tell me.
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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After Jesus started his ministry, I doubt that he spent a lot of time pursuing his craft. He did have wealthy supporters, which included several women (Luke 8:1-3). Also others like Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-8).
Also, Jesus was secretly supported by influential men, notably Nicodemus (John 3:1-2, John 19:39)), and Joseph of Arimathaea (John 19:38).
Apparently, Jesus had supporters in high places. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | After Jesus started his ministry, I doubt that he spent a lot of time pursuing his craft. He did have wealthy supporters, which included several women (Luke 8:1-3). Also others like Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-8).
Also, Jesus was secretly supported by influential men, notably Nicodemus (John 3:1-2, John 19:39)), and Joseph of Arimathaea (John 19:38).
Apparently, Jesus had supporters in high places. |
I agree with you. I don't think Jesus did much carpentry once His ministry started. Early retirement!
I most definitely need to follow Jesus!!!
But seriously, your references are great.
Let me point out a few things I found as well.
1) Judas was the keeper of the treasury.
Everyone knows he stole from it, but unless there was enough in there, to the point he thought he could get away with it, he wouldn't have been able to steal, would he?? So it appears they weren't living paycheck to paycheck, so to speak.
2)As far as Jesus being homeless is concerned:
Several things wrong with that theory.
John 1: 37-39
37When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus. 38Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, "What do you want?"
They said, "Rabbi" (which means Teacher), "where are you staying?"
39"Come," he replied, "and you will see."
So they went and saw where he was staying, and spent that day with him. It was about the tenth hour.
Jesus had a home! Some people challenge this because it says, "where he was staying" meaning He could have been staying with friends. But that is not accurate.
Jesus invited these men to stay with Him overnight. You don't do that if you are a guest in someone else's home. To do so would be viewed as rude. So Jesus had someplace to call His own.
Jesus went by the title "Rabbi" or teacher, and had free access to the Holy Scriptures in the temple where He taught. Homeless people did not have that right.
The very fact that Jesus was recognized as a "Rabbi" shows a level of respect in the community.
So how people can think that Jesus slept on the side of the road is beyond me.
Next:
Mark 1: 29-31
29As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew. 30Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told Jesus about her. 31So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them.
Peter had a home. He was married and had his mother-in-law living with him also. So how then could it be that Jesus had no home of his own? Not likely.
So what about the scripture:
Luke 9: 58 ?
58Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
This is a line taken COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT!
Go back to 51 and read thru to 58 again.
Jesus was on the road and went to Samaria.
But the people there turned Him away. He was not welcome there, so He had to leave. It was then that He spoke this line. It's not because He didn't have a home or that He couldn't afford a room at an inn somewhere, but that the Samaritans threw Him out of town!
That's just part of what I found.
There is so much more.
But my point here is, for all you Christians who believe God intends for you to be poor, and "suffering", you are dead wrong.
God never said money is evil. In fact, He said the exact opposite!
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Hi eleven, I believe you have misread one of Pete's posts.
| Pete wrote: | | Jesus probably received the greatest hostility in Jerusalem, and around the Temple, from the priests, Pharisees, scribes and Sadducee's whom he castigated on many occasions for their hypocrisy |
| eleven wrote: | But how could this be? Jesus was seen by the Pharisees as a threat, and Jesus pulled no punches about calling them hypocrites - in public no less! That is humiliating.
Why in the world would the Pharisees then be hospitable to Him? |
Pete said hostility, & you used the word hospitable. See it? 
Nobby
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: |
Pete said hostility, & you used the word hospitable. See it?
Nobby |
OOOPS!!! Yup Nobby, you are correct. My bad!!! 
Thank you!
Sorry Pete!
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | 1) Judas was the keeper of the treasury.
Everyone knows he stole from it, |
He was the keeper of the their 'treasury', but it isn't true that 'everyone knows he stole from it'.
John 1: 37-39: Unfortunately we do not know where Jesus was staying in Bethany, and we cannot assume He had a Home there, particularly since it wasn't His home town. He could have been 'staying' at the home of a friend or relative, or at an inn for all this passage tells us.
| eleven wrote: | | Jesus went by the title "Rabbi" or teacher, |
Jesus was called 'Rabbi' by some, he didn't affect the title as such. It was not a position, but a term of respect.
The passage Pete provided gives us the best clue (Luke 8:1-3) regarding the financial support for his ministry.
Regarding Zacchaeus, we only know that Jesus lodged with him one time, not hardly a 'wealthy supporter'.
| eleven wrote: | Also, Jesus was secretly supported by influential men, notably Nicodemus (John 3:1-2, John 19:39)), and Joseph of Arimathaea (John 19:38).
Apparently, Jesus had supporters in high places. |
Pure conspiracy theory. Nothing in scripture tells us that these men 'supported' Jesus financially.
There are more assumptions throughout this thread, but history, anthropology, and archeology gives us an idea how a person on a journey lived. Jesus behavior during His ministry was not uncommon for 'prophets', 'teachers', etc. Travel around, stay with friends, family, supporters, even camping out.
It was said that Jesus, being a craftsman, was 'middle-class' in Jewish society at the time. This is likely true academically speaking. He could have well saved up money during his life to support His journey's, but knowing Him and His take on the sparrows and the lilies, I doubt that He did much but faithfully trust that his physical needs would be provided for.
We must also understand that His ministry was only 3 years in length, and the tide didn't turn on him until the end, there would have been plenty of places to stay, and plenty of people to contribute a meal or two throughout those 3 years.
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
Jesus was called 'Rabbi' by some, he didn't affect the title as such. It was not a position, but a term of respect. |
I'm not so sure about that:
Luke 4
16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
Now maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think just anyone was allowed to handle these scrolls, where they?
| RevJP wrote: |
Regarding Zacchaeus, we only know that Jesus lodged with him one time, not hardly a 'wealthy supporter'. |
How do we know it was only one time?
| Pete wrote: | Also, Jesus was secretly supported by influential men, notably Nicodemus (John 3:1-2, John 19:39)), and Joseph of Arimathaea (John 19:38).
Apparently, Jesus had supporters in high places. |
| RevJP wrote: |
Pure conspiracy theory. Nothing in scripture tells us that these men 'supported' Jesus financially. |
1) What "conspiracy"?
2) No but it is implied. And if He traveled with so many people, they must have had some sort of income.
John 4:8
(His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
I don't think Jesus was a rich man, but He certainly wasn't poor either. Whether it was Supernatural means,
or thru work, and the donations/support of His disciples, He always had what He needed, and whatever He had left over, He gave to someone else--
Matthew 17
27"But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
\
John 1: 37-39: Unfortunately we do not know where Jesus was staying in Bethany, and we cannot assume He had a Home there, particularly since it wasn't His home town. He could have been 'staying' at the home of a friend or relative, or at an inn for all this passage tells us.
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John 12:1; "Then Jesus six days before the Passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead." V.2; "There they made him a supper; and Martha served; but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him."
Matt. 26:6; "Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper," See also Mark 14:3.
John 11:1; "Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha."
It would be seem to be obvious that Jesus, in Bethany, would have stayed in a friends home, Most likely that of Lazarus, Martha and Mary, because that is where the meals were served as well. He also stayed at the house of Simon, noted above.
Jesus, more than likely, had more offers than he could handle in almost every town he entered. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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The love of money is the root of all evil.
We, as christians, are not to build our lives around seeking wealth. We are to build our lives around God and doing His will. Some christians, God will bless with much material resources, others not. So if it is in Gods will what does it matter which He chooses for us?
1 Tim 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
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Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | The love of money is the root of all evil.
We, as christians, are not to build our lives around seeking wealth. We are to build our lives around God and doing His will. Some christians, God will bless with much material resources, others not. So if it is in Gods will what does it matter which He chooses for us?
1 Tim 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. |
I'll tell ya why.
For some reason people in general think that Christians, if they are "real" Christians are doomed to a life of poverty because after all, Jesus was a poor man.
What nonsense!
First of all Jesus was not a poor man. He was not some rag tag homeless prophet who let the world dump on Him while He smiled stupidly, forgiving everybody, then slept in the dirt somewhere, unless someone gave Him a handout. I think this thread and all its contributors have accurately dispelled that nonsense. Thank you to all!!!
Jesus was a man that was respected in the community, and never wanted for anything. If He ever had extra, He gave it away.
Next point-
There are those who think that if someone is graced with materialism and claim to be a Christian, that they are going against the Word of God.
Maybe yes, maybe no.
If a Christian is blessed with money, then it is there obligation to use as much of this tool as they need to meet their responsibilities, and give the rest away.
That is what Jesus did.
When the Israelites were wandering the desert, and God reigned manna upon them, they were told to take what they need for the day. When they tried to take more, it turned moldy and inedible. God is saying, take what you need and leave the rest. Trust me, for I will provide for you on a daily basis. This is where faith comes in.
I guess the point of all this is, I'm really sick and tired of the world, (and many Christians as well) saying that our life - the Christian life- was meant to be a life of heartache and pain, suffering and sacrifice, poverty and struggling, and if you deviate from that, then you are not a "real" Christian.
Jesus said, I have come to give you life, and life more abundantly.
Be of GOOD CHEER, for I have overcome the world.
We as Christians were meant to have a life of abundance.
We are blessed. Blessed means to be favored.
We are supposed to be the envy of the world. Not so that we can brag, but because in this way, the world will want to know where we get our strength, where we get our prosperity, were we get our energy , where we get our joy, and will want to partake of it too.
So why aren't we being the example God intended us to be? Just asking.
And just for the record, no I am not rich. In fact, I am unemployed right now, but Jesus has already provided me with what I need because as He taught me, the Father knows what you need before you even ask.
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