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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 708
Location: Arizona
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Did Jesus Ever Teach Doctrine? |
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| Virbate wrote: | | "The fact that no two believers agree on all points of doctrine shows that God's kingdom is not about doctrine. It is a shame that churches and pastors today focus so much on doctrine. Do we assume that a Christian's faith in God must come through the channel of doctrine? That belief is anti-Christian and full of hatred and self-loathing." |
This is an interesting statement, Virbate, because (as far as my wife and I have discovered), Jesus never taught doctrine. If He did teach doctrine, we'd sure like to see it. But, if Jesus didn't teach doctrine... did the Old Testament teach doctrine? And if neither the Old Testament nor Jesus taught doctrine... then where did the practice of teaching doctrine originate - and, is it a bad thing to teach doctrine?
And finally, how do we even define doctrine in the first place? |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Did Jesus Ever Teach Doctrine? |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: |
And finally, how do we even define doctrine in the first place? |
As far as I know, doctrine is a teaching of principles.
So yes, this would include Jesus.
But I think you guys are talking about two different things and calling it "doctrine."
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: |
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You're missing the point entirely. Whatever Jesus said becomes doctrine simply because He said it. Of course the interpretation of what He said is where the problem issues lay.
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Did Jesus teach the doctrine of the Trinity?
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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The whole of John Chap 8 is filled with statements implying Jesus' divinity talking about His father as God but there is nothing there about the Holy Spirit.
In 1st century Palestine citing one's father was making a claim to identity and Jesus clearly makes those claim. It was what eventually got Him executed.
Toward the end of Jesus' ministry he cited the "comforter" was coming and you can take that to be the third member of the trinity.
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | The whole of John Chap 8 is filled with statements implying Jesus' divinity talking about His father as God but there is nothing there about the Holy Spirit.
In 1st century Palestine citing one's father was making a claim to identity and Jesus clearly makes those claim. It was what eventually got Him executed.
Toward the end of Jesus' ministry he cited the "comforter" was coming and you can take that to be the third member of the trinity. |
Why do Trinitarian scholars say that the doctrine is a post-biblical development? See for example, Dr. Shirley Guthrie, Jr.
| Quote: | | The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word "trinity" itself, nor such language as "one in three," "three in one," one "essence" or "substance," or three "persons" is biblical language. The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient church, taken not from the Bible but from classical Greek philosophy...While we cannot find the doctrine itself spelled out in Scripture, we can find there the roots of the doctrine, some affirmations about God which forced the church to ask questions which led it to formulate the doctrine. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | Did Jesus teach the doctrine of the Trinity? |
Yes, as a matter of fact, He does.
John 14
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
That makes 3.
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: |
Why do Trinitarian scholars say that the doctrine is a post-biblical development? See for example, Dr. Shirley Guthrie, Jr.
| Quote: | | The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word "trinity" itself, nor such language as "one in three," "three in one," one "essence" or "substance," or three "persons" is biblical language. The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient church, taken not from the Bible but from classical Greek philosophy...While we cannot find the doctrine itself spelled out in Scripture, we can find there the roots of the doctrine, some affirmations about God which forced the church to ask questions which led it to formulate the doctrine. |
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This is what you are relying on????
Thru out the NT, Jesus clearly distiguishes Himself from the Father. That's two.
John 16
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
To say there is no Trinity because Jesus never taught "Trinity" is the equivalent of me saying, the Bible never mentions a "dozen" apostles, only 12.
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 708
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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We all know the tumultuous uproar that was caused in the early church over whether or not a man had to be circumcised in order to be saved.
Can you imagine, then, what a tumultuous uproar would have been caused in the early church over there being three distinct, co-eternal, co-existent, co-dependent Persons in the Godhead. Wow!
Compared to the doctrine of a three-in-one God, circumcision was nothing... and yet, the debate over circumcision nearly ripped the early church apart. If the early church would have known about a trinity, I fear it would have spelled the death of Christianity.
Therefore, I see no reason at all to suspect that Jesus taught (or even imagined) a tri-unity of three distinct Persons residing within a divine Godhead. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | To say there is no Trinity because Jesus never taught "Trinity" is the equivalent of me saying, the Bible never mentions a "dozen" apostles, only 12. |
Why didn't he teach the doctrine of the Trinity?
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | We all know the tumultuous uproar that was caused in the early church over whether or not a man had to be circumcised in order to be saved.
Can you imagine, then, what a tumultuous uproar would have been caused in the early church over there being three distinct, co-eternal, co-existent, co-dependent Persons in the Godhead. Wow!
Compared to the doctrine of a three-in-one God, circumcision was nothing... and yet, the debate over circumcision nearly ripped the early church apart. If the early church would have known about a trinity, I fear it would have spelled the death of Christianity.
Therefore, I see no reason at all to suspect that Jesus taught (or even imagined) a tri-unity of three distinct Persons residing within a divine Godhead. |
I think this is a powerful argument but my experience has been that the Trinitarian at the popular level (i.e., the "average man" sitting in the pew) doesn't find it compelling. [I raised this very point in casual conversation with a student some time back. His response was, "Have you ever read John 1:1?"  ]
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: |
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I dont hold the idea of the trinity as doctrine since it really is an idea far beyond our human capacity to truly understand. That said, there is plenty of evidence within the OT about the Trinity and Jesus needn't have spent a whole 5 minutes trying to explain it to people because they already had all the evidence they would ever get anyway. It really is a moot point.
There will not be a "test" at the gates of heaven on all the trinitarian doctrines to see if we can come in.
The real problem comes when one person who claims to know all about the communication between the three members of the Godhead and begins to spout off things they couldn't possibly know (and really dont know but that doesn't ever seem to stop them.)
There is certainly enough grace to spread around that covers both sides of this argument. Moot point!
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | GospelCompilation wrote: | We all know the tumultuous uproar that was caused in the early church over whether or not a man had to be circumcised in order to be saved.
Can you imagine, then, what a tumultuous uproar would have been caused in the early church over there being three distinct, co-eternal, co-existent, co-dependent Persons in the Godhead. Wow!
Compared to the doctrine of a three-in-one God, circumcision was nothing... and yet, the debate over circumcision nearly ripped the early church apart. If the early church would have known about a trinity, I fear it would have spelled the death of Christianity.
Therefore, I see no reason at all to suspect that Jesus taught (or even imagined) a tri-unity of three distinct Persons residing within a divine Godhead. |
I think this is a powerful argument but my experience has been that the Trinitarian at the popular level (i.e., the "average man" sitting in the pew) doesn't find it compelling. [I raised this very point in casual conversation with a student some time back. His response was, "Have you ever read John 1:1?" ] |
What's really compelling is watching people who can't quite figure out how it would be possible for there to be 3 deities, but only ONE God.
Keep going - it will come to you eventually.
Hey Siam, where are ya when I need you???
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 708
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
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So, if Jesus did teach doctrine (a notion upon which the majority of us seem to agree), then What doctrines did Jesus teach His followers to observe?
We know that every Christian church on this planet requires its members to accept and observe their doctrinal beliefs in order to participate in their religious practices. Our question is... would we have been required to accept Jesus' doctrinal beliefs, had we wanted to follow Him two thousand years ago?
Perhaps it would help if we addressed this question in the form of a parable: Let's say that Jesus was this really great rabbi, and we really wanted to be His disciple, what doctrines would He have required us to accept in order to become His disciple and participate in His religious practices? |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| GoselCompilation wrote: |
Perhaps it would help if we addressed this question in the form of a parable: Let's say that Jesus was this really great rabbi, and we really wanted to be His disciple, what doctrines would He have required us to accept in order to become His disciple and participate in His religious practices? |
Matthew 22
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
What else can there possibly be to discuss?
We are ALL equal.
And since Jesus took away our sins, we are all clean,
we are all on the same slate, we are all starting out at ground zero, we are all in the same boat, we are all righteous before God, we are all in Him, I am in Him and He is in Me, If you have seen the Me, you have seen the Father, we are all ONE.
Don't you get it?
WE are God!!!
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