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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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 Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Is something wrong with today's churches?
Why confine it to today's churches? They have been corrupt from the beginning in the fourth century, and in no way represent the God of the Bible.
To question a pastor's understanding of the Bible is the highest form of heresy. Bible studies, if they ever occur, follow a preconceived doctrinal formula, and are not subject to criticism. If you join a church, you march in step with the rest of the sheep, or out you go. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | To question a pastor's understanding of the Bible is the highest form of heresy. Bible studies, if they ever occur, follow a preconceived doctrinal formula, and are not subject to criticism. If you join a church, you march in step with the rest of the sheep, or out you go. |
Are you kidding me???
Now I KNOW you are being sarcastic here, but my question to you is, what are you going to do about it??
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | Pete wrote: | | To question a pastor's understanding of the Bible is the highest form of heresy. Bible studies, if they ever occur, follow a preconceived doctrinal formula, and are not subject to criticism. If you join a church, you march in step with the rest of the sheep, or out you go. |
:shock:
Are you kidding me???
Now I KNOW you are being sarcastic here, but my question to you is, what are you going to do about it?? |
Why would I be kidding you? I'm being factual. I've been around enough church leaders of various denominations to know that they don't care to have anyone make waves, and in particular don't offer a platform for open discussion, especially, when their authority is being challenged.
What am I going to do about it? As far as church leaders go, tell them that they are unbiblical frauds when I have the opportunity, and challenge them to open discussion if they are remotely interested. Of course, the first thing they want to know is about my credentials and degrees from "official Christian" seminaries.
Jesus did exactly that with the scribes, Pharisees and priests. in fact, a good third of his NT dialogue was aimed at, and condemned the "church leaders" of his day.
It is more profitable to dialogue with individual receptive people who are looking for truth through open discussion. If they aren't, move on. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: |
Why would I be kidding you? I'm being factual. I've been around enough church leaders of various denominations to know that they don't care to have anyone make waves, and in particular don't offer a platform for open discussion, especially, when their authority is being challenged. |
So don't challenge it. Lead, don't follow.
| Pete wrote: |
What am I going to do about it? As far as church leaders go, tell them that they are unbiblical frauds when I have the opportunity, and challenge them to open discussion if they are remotely interested. Of course, the first thing they want to know is about my credentials and degrees from "official Christian" seminaries. |
Which is going to accomplish, what?
| Pete wrote: |
Jesus did exactly that with the scribes, Pharisees and priests. in fact, a good third of his NT dialogue was aimed at, and condemned the "church leaders" of his day. |
Not to bash you Pete, cause believe me, I truly understand your frustration. But how is this going to help the church in anyway?
| Pete wrote: |
It is more profitable to dialogue with individual receptive people who are looking for truth through open discussion. If they aren't, move on. |
Who's truth? The point of the church is to unite, not divide. Put 10 people in a room, and I guarantee you, you are going to get 10 different answers. That doesn't mean 9 of them are wrong.
This philosophy has been going on for decades. It's time to take a different approach.
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: |
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How is this going to help the church?
Which church? There are literally thousands of "Christian" denominations, and independent churches out there, all claiming to be the true church - or at least truer than the others.
The Roman Catholic Church claims that there is no salvation outside of its doors, no matter what you believe. It's either be Catholic or burn - which, incidentally, they have done a lot of throughout their history.
Other Trinitarian denominations haven't done much better, and condemn all who do not accept their unbiblical creeds. They also, involve themselves in civil politics, and other earthly corruption.
The Bible tells us to "Come out of her my people", not to become a part of their folly. I spent a lot of time in those organizations, and frankly, I feel great not being a part of organized churchianity. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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The Bible tells us that satan is in control of most of the Christian world today (2 Corithinthians 11:14,15).
The Christian duty is to bring the truths of the Bible, back into the churches.
They need to be taught what is true Salvation.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 709
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Chop14U wrote: | | "How do you take a man (or woman) who is unsure of the ways of God and ask that person to add to the church." |
This is an excellent question. And we would like to offer our thoughts on the matter, if you don't mind.
My wife knew a woman who went through the same experience. This woman felt like she had nothing to offer a church. The woman attended church regularly, but she just sat there and listened, and grew more restless and more uncomfortable with each passing week. And the woman's feelings stemmed from the fact that she didn't know what she had to offer that could possibly add to a church.
But, after a while, my wife's friend discovered she did have something to offer:
She discovered that she had questions. Lots of questions. Lots of hard questions. And those hard questions were about God and Jesus and about Scripture and God's will and how we're supposed to live in this world. And one Sunday morning, she decided to just open up and throw one of her really hard questions out there for the group to consider.
And that's when my wife's friend discovered something else:
She discovered that other people in her Sunday School shared the same burning questions, but (like her) were also afraid to say anything, for fear of being judged by those more learned (or more holy) than themselves. And when they heard the woman opening up and asking their own questions, they too chimed in and expressed their desire to know the truth, as well.
None of this was done in an angry, judgmental way, but in a soft, humble manner. My wife's friend asked those in the class that were more learned to have patience as she stumbled through her questions, and asked for their assistance in finding the answers to those questions.
Since the questions were so difficult, those who were learned didn't always have an answer and were thus forced to study their Scriptures deeper and harder than they'd ever studied them before. Thus, the ones asking the questions as well as those helping them to find the answers were both blessed together.
Soon, a new type of Sunday school class developed in that church - a class devoted solely to the harder questions... so that if anyone struggled with something or needed an open place to express their thoughts and feelings about spiritual matters... they had a safe place to go and dig and discover the truth from God's Word with fellow Christians.
So, come to find out... my wife's friend had a LOT to offer that church.
That woman now tells people to 1) never underestimate the power of difficult questions, and 2) never be afraid to ask the difficult questions. |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 709
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| SilverSurfer wrote: | | "The Bible tells us that Satan is in control of most of the Christian world today (II Corinthians 11:14-15)." |
Sorry, but that passage in II Corinthians says absolutely nothing about Satan being in control of most of the Christian world today.
Where are you getting your information, and why do you feel like you need to misquote Scripture in order to make a point? You have better resources than to resort to such tactics. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | Is something wrong with today's churches?
Why confine it to today's churches? They have been corrupt from the beginning in the fourth century, and in no way represent the God of the Bible.
To question a pastor's understanding of the Bible is the highest form of heresy. Bible studies, if they ever occur, follow a preconceived doctrinal formula, and are not subject to criticism. If you join a church, you march in step with the rest of the sheep, or out you go. |
So be a shepherd, not a sheep. That is what Jesus commanded us to do. Why are you following sheep??
Could it be that YOU are the one that is supposed to turn it all around?
Matthew 10
16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | How is this going to help the church?
Which church? There are literally thousands of "Christian" denominations, and independent churches out there, all claiming to be the true church - or at least truer than the others.
The Roman Catholic Church claims that there is no salvation outside of its doors, no matter what you believe. It's either be Catholic or burn - which, incidentally, they have done a lot of throughout their history.
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Jesus commanded, "Peter,(disciple) feed my sheep"
Are you a disciple? Then do as Jesus commanded.
Question to you-
How do you feed a starving nation?
Answer-
One mouth at a time.
PICK ONE!!!
_________________
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | The Bible tells us that satan is in control of most of the Christian world today (2 Corithinthians 11:14,15).
The Christian duty is to bring the truths of the Bible, back into the churches.
They need to be taught what is true Salvation. |
Fine we'll see you there on Saturday.
If I'm not there in 20 minutes, start without me......
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | SilverSurfer wrote: | | "The Bible tells us that Satan is in control of most of the Christian world today (II Corinthians 11:14-15)." |
Sorry, but that passage in II Corinthians says absolutely nothing about Satan being in control of most of the Christian world today. |
2 Cor. 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Just who do you think is influencing those people ?
11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
Light is represented as the truth....so since the Bible says that satan is an angel of light......we can then assume that satan is using his idea of Bible truth to the church people.
| Quote: |
11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. |
AND, any minister who downplays God's Law in any shape or form...is doing satan work....
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
| Quote: |
Where are you getting your information, and why do you feel like you need to misquote Scripture in order to make a point? You have better resources than to resort to such tactics. |
Perhaps I should have added:
'satan, which deceives the whole world' (Revelation 12:9).
AND, if God says that...how much more would satan want to control the Christian world, yet make them believe that they are still God's people ?
Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelComplilation wrote: |
Soon, a new type of Sunday school class developed in that church - a class devoted solely to the harder questions... so that if anyone struggled with something or needed an open place to express their thoughts and feelings about spiritual matters... they had a safe place to go and dig and discover the truth from God's Word with fellow Christians.
So, come to find out... my wife's friend had a LOT to offer that church.
That woman now tells people to 1) never underestimate the power of difficult questions, and 2) never be afraid to ask the difficult questions. |
Ya know what's really interesting about this?
Jesus says, the church is his bride, and He is the bridegroom.
Therefore, Jesus is present in EVERY church, because no bridegroom wants to be without His bride.
HE IS THERE.
Now tell me, who in the world can walk into any church - I don't care how dusty or stupid it is, and not look past all that to see the bridegroom standing there, waiting for His bride?
Jesus is standing there. Now look HIM in the eyes and tell HIM you have nothing to bring Him.
You must be kidding me!
This is a perfect example of a gift.
Thank you!!!
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | GospelCompilation wrote: | | SilverSurfer wrote: | | "The Bible tells us that Satan is in control of most of the Christian world today (II Corinthians 11:14-15)." |
Sorry, but that passage in II Corinthians says absolutely nothing about Satan being in control of most of the Christian world today. |
2 Cor. 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Just who do you think is influencing those people ? |
7th day Adventists. That's my final answer.
| SilverSurfer wrote: |
Light is represented as the truth....so since the Bible says that satan is an angel of light......we can then assume that satan is using his idea of Bible truth to the church people. |
Ya know, you have a lot of nerve posting this stuff, you really do. Because you post more nonsense then anyone on here. (and that includes the atheists!)
Stop telling everyone else what THEY are doing wrong , and take a real close look at yourself!
You have gone on ad nauseum about keeping the 10 commandments, and you can't even see the forest for the trees.
| God wrote: |
The Greatest Commandment
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment.
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Sorry for the interruption here folks, but I just wanted to point out that nowhere here does it say,
but worship only on SATURDAY.
Let us continue:
| God wrote: |
39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
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But I will guarantee you, before this thread ends, some people here will still insist that unless it is done THEIR WAY, the rest of us are walking is sin.
Anyone who speaks contrary to the Christ, is an Anti-Christ.
Let's see what happens.........
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 709
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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As Eleven pointed out, the first and greatest commandment is to love God. And how do we show our love for God? By doing things His way, by following His will, by choosing His path, by living life the way He said to live it.
SilverSurfer keeps Sabbath holy because he loves God and wants to serve Him according to the letter of the law. Eleven keeps Sunday holy because he loves God and wants to serve Him according to the spirit of the law. They are both convinced in their own minds. Both serve God out of love.
And in accordance to the second part of the greatest commandment...
SilverSurfer warns people about the letter of the law because he loves his neighbor as himself and doesn't want his fellow believers to be lost on judgment day due to some legal technicality. Eleven warns people about the spirit of the law because he loves his neighbor as himself and doesn't want his fellow believers living in bondage and losing the liberty they have in Christ.
It would seem, then, they are both fulfilling the greatest commandment to the best of their abilities... albeit each one in their own unique way.
My wife and I are very careful how we judge others; because we don't know what's in another person's heart. But either way, this one thing is absolutely true: To use the Gospel as an offensive weapon is completely against the Word of God. That, then, should be the litmus test for our testimony.
Do we offend others with our rhetorical enthusiasm for Christ? If so, then how can we stop offending others? And, most importantly, when do we stop offending them? |
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