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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
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 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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45: | Quote: | | The ancient use of the term translated "heart" is the center of thinking not mind |
Yes, I have heard that also.
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Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Missed you Yehu, glad you are back! 
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Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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The main problem with faith (expectation), as I see it, is that we put our trust in religion instead of God and His Word.
We accept a paticular faith (expectation) and stop searching out God and His truths.
Isa 45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
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Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | The main problem with faith (expectation), as I see it, is that we put our trust in religion instead of God and His Word.
We accept a paticular faith (expectation) and stop searching out God and His truths. |
Amen.
Death to religion!!!
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Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Definitions of the word "religion"
(None are totally satisfying) |
Link
I say, death to death. Maranatha.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2870
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| ragman13 wrote: | P.S. You where correct about 1 John 3:9 and I was wrong.  |
Uhhh…
Uhhh…
I find myself speechless (ain’t that a miracle in itself), in that I’m nothin’
I lay any credit for “right” or “wrong” teaching at the foot of the Holy Ghost. Yet I find myself blessed, not in the ego of autognostic victory in hearing I “was correct” but that at least in some small measure I was able to be a vessel for God to help another learn.
| ragman13 wrote: | | Hope that you can stay a while. |
You are too kind. There are many who would not agree with that sentiment. I needed a bit of a break, having become too combative, and must say my continued posting will most likely be tempered and sporadic at best.
| eleven wrote: | | Hey Yehu!!! Long time, no chat. So glad to see you back!!! |
Thank you kindly.
Actually, this definition of faith as expectation is not too whacked. Try it sometime. Whenever you read the NT, take out the word faith and put in the equivalent of expect or expectation. You’ll have a very intriguing read. It took me three months in a Hagan-ite Word of Faith church to realize they held such a radical definition.
In essence, then, Faith becomes as separate from Law as the past from the future. Faith concerns things that will be done, whereas Law cannot speak to anything that hasn’t yet been done. Words of faith are words of the future, concerning future event, future expectations, future “becomings.”
| eleven wrote: | | The power of positive thinking?? |
No. Rather more “Ontic” or substantive. Thinking refers to intellectual propositions and the logic or meaning of their concepts. Faith (here) rather refers to a “feeling” down in the spirit – that one can sense the underpinning powers (dunamous in the Greek) of the spirit-energy universe. You “feel” your balance when riding a bicycle and can come to sense and learn how one’s balance is to be, uh…, “managed”. Faith is defined as this cognition of how spiritual power (again dunamous) works so that one can go save people. In this case, salvation is not a matter of trying to convince somebody to believe something, but rather that a sinner’s spirit is to be substantively transformed. By faith we remove the spirit of sin from within another person. The language becomes difficult, since such a view of faith is more often than not, associated with “New Age” terminology – but hey, sometimes the children of darkness are more wise than the children of light.
| golfjack wrote: | | I didn't mean to start any denominational disputes here. If I did, please accept my apology. |
Don’t think you did. I was merely pointing out that denominations exist primarily because their definitional frameworks are different, and I tried to briefly explain what some of these differences might be. There wasn’t any attempt to pass judgment on the validity of any of the five. It’s just that if you’re talking with somebody who uses a different definition for a word or phrase than you do, mutual understanding can be quite difficult to achieve. The world is bathed in Kierkegaardian faith, and they have no clue what believers mean by the word.
| golfjack wrote: | | This is how Christianity started and nothing should change. |
Yet those who ascribe to the fifth definition would most certainly disagree with you. Salvation is not a matter of changing what people believe, but of mid-wifeing the supernatural power of God to transform their spirit. Change someone’s spirit, and their belief will follow.
Gemütilchkeit
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2870
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | | Missed you Yehu, glad you are back! |
Thank you kindly,
| JonMarie wrote: | | The main problem with faith (expectation), as I see it, is that we put our trust in religion instead of God and His Word. |
Uuurrgggll…
Perhaps I misspoke, or wasn’t clear enough. Your use of the word “faith” in the sentence “We accept a particular faith (expectation) and stop searching out God and His truths.” is actually definition number three – faith not as an expectation, but more as a collection of sacraments, observances and rituals in which one participates. Joining, say, a Catholic church is to “accept a particular faith.” They, in turn, would expect that you follow what they say in all observance of the sacraments they mediate.
Faith as expectation is more ethereal. One is to expect (have faith) that God will lead us. One is to expect (have faith) that God will heal us. One has faith (expects) that such “searching out God and His truths” will result in our transformation. The expectation that God will carry out His Word is defined as “faith.” We expect that we can indeed discover these truths.
Fidelity or faithfulness in marriage is an expectation that one will not engage in sexual activity with other people outside one’s marriage.
| JonMarie wrote: | | and stop searching out God and His truths |
Yet once we find out these truths, should we be continuing to search for different ones?
| JonMarie wrote: | 45: | Quote: | | The ancient use of the term translated "heart" is the center of thinking not mind |
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No. I do wonder where 45 got this idea, but it isn't substantiated within the Greek language. I guess I should go back and look through the thread, but I'm running out of time, and will admit to being lazy.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Yehu: | Quote: | | Yet once we find out these truths, should we be continuing to search for different ones? |
What an excellent question! How can we know, what we don't know, until we know it?
In other words, I can say that, for example, my vision is fine, I can see perfectly clear. However, when I put on proper glasses for the first time and really see clearly, then I can understand the difference. Without ever putting on the proper glasses, I could go on thinking my vision is perfectly fine.
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Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2870
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps I should have written, “Once we find out these truths must we always be second guessing them?”
If I get a pair of glasses that work properly, should I continue to wonder if these might be the wrong ones since I can’t see in the dark? Should I keep seeking for even better glasses in order to see through walls?
Even well after the Reformation, Luther continued to embrace two of the sacraments, putting to death those who preached “believer baptism” since he never rejected (nor could reject) the teaching that participation in the sacrament of water baptism saves one’s soul.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: Re: reply |
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| golfjack wrote: | I didn't mean to start any denominational disputes here. If I did, please accept my apology. There are many that are good, and I think we all know which ones are not. As promised, I am not going to say anything about the ones I disagree with.
But, I will respond to some statements that are part of this forum. I see, some say that what we do here on earth is not doing any good. Some like Siam, I have no idea what he is talking about. |
  
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It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Re: reply |
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| Siam wrote: | | golfjack wrote: | I didn't mean to start any denominational disputes here. If I did, please accept my apology. There are many that are good, and I think we all know which ones are not. As promised, I am not going to say anything about the ones I disagree with.
But, I will respond to some statements that are part of this forum. I see, some say that what we do here on earth is not doing any good. Some like Siam, I have no idea what he is talking about. |
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Ok Siam, here is a brother seeking.
Break it down for him.
In 500 words or less.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yehu: | Quote: | | If I get a pair of glasses that work properly, should I continue to wonder if these might be the wrong ones since I can’t see in the dark? |
If you realize that you have a need to see in the dark, there is such a thing as night vision goggles. They may save you life one day.
Yehu: | Quote: | | Should I keep seeking for even better glasses in order to see through walls? |
If you are an Orthopedic, you will need to see through the walls of the skin and muscle. These xray glasses help to enable doctors to heal broken bones.
I love analogies.
Yehu: | Quote: | | Even well after the Reformation, Luther continued to embrace two of the sacraments, putting to death those who preached “believer baptism” since he never rejected (nor could reject) the teaching that participation in the sacrament of water baptism saves one’s soul. |
I am not aware that Luther believed that water baptisim saves ones soul, but rather it gives evidence that one has the desire to live the new life in Christ.
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Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| eleven wrote: |
Ok Siam, here is a brother seeking.
Break it down for him.
In 500 words or less.
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Golfjack said:
I will start out, I am a Pentacostal. I am a member of a Non-denominational church group. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I pray in tongues. I believe in healing.
Siam says:
The name derives from Pentecost Pentecost (pĕn`təkôst) [Gr.,=fiftieth], important Jewish and Christian feast.
the Greek name for the Jewish Feast of Weeks, which falls on the fiftieth day after Passover. On this day the Holy Spirit descended upon the first Christians enabling them to "speak in other tongues"
Maybe I’m speaking in tongues and that is why you can see no sense in what it is I’m saying. Unless your talking about “goobaly gahh boog whaaa” talking in tongues…then that’s just messed up.
A Non-denominational church group...isn't this an oxymoron?
And I believe in healing. I cut my finger three days ago and you wouldn’t even know it today. Praise God.
Golfjack said:
I believe that some day, the church will be raptured, and probably pretty soon. I believe in the Virgin Birth and believe in the Trinity. I believe that the Jews are God's Chosen people.
Siam says:
Whoo…hang on here. Which church…your church!
And dosn't Jesus dislike the Jewish religion now that it dosn't ackowledge him as God.
I believe in the Trinity, and maybe virgin biths. It's happend to nearly any god figure of any worth.
Golfjack said:
I believe that one must be born again to enter into God's kingdom.
Siam says:
So do I! Welcome to Gods kingdom.
Golfjack:
I believe that we are saved by grace through faith.
faith (f th)
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.
Siam says:
I believe we are saved by grace through truth.
Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.
Golfjack
I believe in the five-fold ministry.
Siam:
THE WHAT! 
Golfjack said:
I just believe what the Bible says.
Siam says:
So you know your God too.
Peace.
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http://iamchristlord.webs.com/
It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: Re: reply |
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| Siam wrote: |
A Non-denominational church group...isn't this an oxymoron?
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I don't think so.
From my non-denom experience, we all come from different organized religions, but have decided to give up those differences and gather as a body of believers focus on the Word, while leaving dogma behind.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Faith |
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The present Christian world-at-large, lacks faith.
I say this because they have surplanted their ideas and feelings, for what God has said in the Bible.
Faith, is believing exactly what the Bible says, and acting on that word that is written.
Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith, in God, and the revealed Plan of Salvation, is ONLY found in the Bible.
Too many in the Christian world adopt:
"God Says, But I Think".
For example:
20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
Immediately.....a number of excuses come into play as to why a person should ignore, or flat out reject this Bible verse.
Instead of accepting this Bible verse as the truth, and incorporating it into a person's belief system as being the truth, as found in God's word....it is not accepted.
A lack of faith.
James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works ? can faith save him ?
2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead ?
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect ?
2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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