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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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 Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | | Someone claiming to have been sent by God and dictating what is spiritually correct..... is different than someone who has actually been sent by God and teaches what is spiritually correct. |
Well said, Dust. And that is the crux of what we're talking about in this thread.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
I am not going to argue with you. You said "humility is counterproductive to discovering the truth",
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Hold on a minute!! I just re-read the previous few posts in this discussion. TBax, what are you doing here?
In the post you're replying to here, I said
| I wrote: | | The idea of making acceptance of teaching a matter of humility is counterproductive to discovering the truth, and to allowing people the freedom of independent thought. |
...and you took out a section of this statement and started charging me with being opposed to the quality of humility!! Don't cloud the issue, and don't get the conversation off thrack like this!! I am trying to make the truth clear here. What are you trying to do? It looks like the same tatic a non-objective news media might use when they want to slant a story a certain way.
| TBax wrote: | | ...and I showed scripturaly it [humility] is necessary. |
...and whether God expects us to be humble is not even in question. You have twisted my point, and then gotten the discussion onto something that is completely off the subject.
Our topic is not humility!! It is defining humility as allowing someone to dictate what one must believe, and questioning a Christian's humility if they question the truth of what they are taught, or reject what they are taught as untrue. It is one thing to reject what one is taught because one simply does not want to hear the truth, but to reject a teaching because after searching the scripture, one finds it to be untrue is not being proud or unteachable. And this is where the Witnesses become manipulative and abusive. Because to the Witnesses, I don't think it matters if the teaching is rejected because one finds it inconvenient, or if it's rejected because it does not hold up in the light of scripture. If one doesn't buy in, one is considered proud and unteachable by the Wintesses. This actually is not even making acceptance of teaching a matter of humility, it is outright abuse and control.
| TBax wrote: | | Me saying people need to be humble and teachable is scriptural. |
No one disputes this and it is not being questioned here. You are casting me as questioning it when I am not.
| TBax wrote: | | You seem to have altered your meaning of humility. To turn humility into "blind acceptance" seems to be your goal here. |
I think it is the Witnesses who have done this.
TBax, I want to hear what you have to say for this. Were you misunderstanding me? Because it sure looks like a dishonest attempt to throw the whole discussion off track with a bit of logical sleight of hand.
Furthermore, I want an answer to this:
| Quote: | | Yet didn't the founders of the Witness organization think independently of the religious backgrounds which they came from? |
I won't let all the points I made just slide because of your "I don't want to argue with you" response. That is no response. I was not starting an argument, I was asking valid questions and making valid points. If you wish to show that you are interested in making the truth known, not covering it over, then address them honestly.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
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Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | Someone claiming to have been sent by God and dictating what is spiritually correct..... is different than someone who has actually been sent by God and teaches what is spiritually correct. |
That is changing the subject, and basically just a play on words. The same person can be teaching what is correct, and some will look at that as him dictating what is correct. If he speaks with authority he appears to be dictating, if he speaks with uncertainty then people will think he doesn't know what he is talking about.  The question is about those God actually sent.
| Zathrus wrote: | | God did not give some as teachers so that they could tell people what to believe. |
Is Zathrus right? Why did God give some as teachers???
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Agape,
TBax |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
You are trying to turn a word I used into another word. I used "humility" or "humble" and you are interpreting it as "gullible" and "blind acceptance".
| Zathrus wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | TBax, you stated that a Witness for Jehovah must be humble and teachable. This defines acceptance of Witness doctrine as a matter of humility. |
A matter of humility, as opposed to a matter of reason, objective thought, and scriptural proof.
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Exactly wrong! I did say a Witness must be humble, but I never said at the expense of reason, thought, or scripture. To the contrary, I showed those qualities are needed. But it seems you wish to argue using your altered use of humble. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | Yet didn't the founders of the Witness organization think independently of the religious backgrounds which they came from? |
Not independent thought, but dependent on the scriptures as opposed to the religious tradition of employing pagan doctrine in place of truth. Reading what the Bible actually says instead of trying to search the scriptures to try to substantiate a preconceived idea. 
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Exactly wrong! I did say a Witness must be humble, but I never said at the expense of reason, thought, or scripture. To the contrary, I showed those qualities are needed. But it seems you wish to argue using your altered use of humble. |
TBax, we've gone over this at length in another thread. In fact the reason we went over it at such length is because I wanted to very clearly understand what you were saying.
You keep saying that humility is not blindly accepting what someone teaches. I hear that.
But we also established that if a Witness hears something taught and believes that he/she identifies a contradiction between this teaching and what the Bible teaches, then after he/she asks for clarification, if he/she is still not convinced that the seeming contradiction is reconciled, that he/she is expected to "be humble and teachable" and accept the teaching of the organization, though its apparent conflict with the Bible in his/her understanding is still unresolved.
Have I got that correctly?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
If Jesus were personally teaching you something and you simply couldn't understand it or fully receive it, no matter how much explanation was given, what should be your coarse???? That is all we are talking about. If I understand that God and Jesus are working through this slave class, and I get 99.99% of what they say and see it scripturally, why would I raise a fuss over .01% of something I personally don't get. If people think we are wrong they are free to leave. No one is forced to stay.
If Jesus disciples are to be "one" or truly united, then individuals cannot be pushing or teaching their own ideas, as that causes divisions.
John 17:20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | If I understand that God and Jesus are working through this slave class, and I get 99.99% of what they say and see it scripturally, why would I raise a fuss over .01% of something I personally don't get. |
The problem is some of us don't think God is working through your "slave class", and the reason is there is a little more than .01% of what they teach that looks like it contradicts the gospel message.
| TBax wrote: | | If people think we are wrong they are free to leave. No one is forced to stay. |
They're free to become an apostate? All of us here are quite aquainted with what happens once they exercise their freedom to leave.
| TBax wrote: | | If Jesus disciples are to be "one" or truly united, then individuals cannot be pushing or teaching their own ideas, as that causes divisions. |
And we've been over this. I have pointed out it doesn't make any sense for the army to all be marching together if they're going the wrong way.
And right here on this forum, I see clear evidence that in an atmosphere where ideas can be shared and examined freely, truth can be discovered. Just as I've personally seen how in an environment where conformity of religious beliefs is expected, truth gets completely lost.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | The problem is some of us don't think God is working through your "slave class", |
That really isn't the point. JW's trust in God and Jesus working through this class isn't contingent upon your approval. I explained why humility is needed. It doesn't matter what you believe about the slave class. That doesn't alter my or my brothers understanding. That doesn't alter the unity that is to exist among Jesus true disciples.
| Zathrus wrote: | | They're free to become an apostate? All of us here are quite aquainted with what happens once they exercise their freedom to leave. |
Adam and Eve were free to choose as well. They chose, and that resulted in death. Actions have consequences.
| Zathrus wrote: | And we've been over this. I have pointed out it doesn't make any sense for the army to all be marching together if they're going the wrong way.
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What if they are all going different ways???
If Jesus or perhaps one of his apostles were personally teaching you something and you simply couldn't understand it or fully receive it, no matter how much explanation was given, what should be your coarse????
It all comes down to this: I am right if Jesus is leading this slave class. And that is what we believe. It doesn't matter if you do not believe it. That isn't to alter my loyalty and submission to Jesus, and those I have come to trust as being used by Jesus! 
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Have I got that correctly? |
TBax, you have not answered this. Instead, you've again done this sleight of hand thing where you have substituted Jesus and the apostles for your Witness leadership and teachers.
Your slave class is not Jesus nor the apostles, nor do they fill the role of either one today.
And please do not respond to my posts by not addressing what I say and instead asking a question (which may not actually have a lot to do with what we're discussing) of me. Now you tell me: have I understood you right?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
I have explained my position. If you refuse to answer the question, then you are refusing to follow the coarse of logic.
If you can properly answer my question then you will know if you are correct, and you should be able to understand why humility is proper in these instances.
If Jesus or perhaps one of his apostles were personally teaching you something and you simply couldn't understand it or fully receive it, no matter how much explanation was given, what should be your coarse????
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | If Jesus or perhaps one of his apostles were personally teaching you something and you simply couldn't understand it or fully receive it, no matter how much explanation was given, what should be your coarse???? (sic) |
OK, I'll humor you here. My course of action would depend on one thing: Am I one of those who has his eyes opened to see Jesus in the teaching of scripture, or am I one whose eyes are blinded?
In the Bible we read that when Jesus taught from the law and the prophets, the hearts of His disciples burned in them as they saw how the law and prophets spoke of Jesus, how they spoke of the salvation plan of God, fulfilled through the cross and the resurrection. In everything that Jesus and the apostles taught, they showed how the law and prophets spoke of Jesus. I get that. I totally get it.
If I were one whose eyes were blind, I'd see only laws, rules, and requirements. I'd search the scriptures thinking in them, in following all the requirements, I'd find eternal life. And I wouldn't see that the scriptures are what testifies of Jesus. I wouldn't get any of what Jesus and the apostles taught, but I'd be convinced I was understanding what the scriptures taught.
If I were one of those like many today who mix these two, teaching Jesus + law, well that is where abundant confusion enters in. Then there would be much taught that I wouldn't get. I'll tell you what people who I know who try to mix Jesus + law do: they hear the teaching of scripture selectively. Verses that don't fit their doctrine, they filter them out in their awareness and understanding. If someone like me comes to them and asks for example "What about this verse :Rom 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."? then they respond that I'm contradicting scripture, unaware that I am merely quoting scripture. They respond that I'm using one verse to cancel out another one, unaware that they have already used their pet teachings to negate the verse I just quoted.
I was one of these poeple at one time in my life. I know how unsettling some verses are once you've made your mind up how God should work, and what He should have inspired His prophets and apostles to write. I remember the comfort of writing portions of the Bible off as carrying less weight, being something we don't have to listen to, being less important than the pet verses we use to prop up our precious teachings of how God should work.
So to answer your question, I'm blessed of my Father to be one of those whose eyes are opened to see Jesus in the scripture, and I know that Jesus and the apostles taught none other things than what the law and the prophets said should come. And that's Jesus, Lord and savior. My heart burns in me as I see Him in scripture. I get it.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | Yet didn't the founders of the Witness organization think independently of the religious backgrounds which they came from? |
Not independent thought, but dependent on the scriptures as opposed to the religious tradition of employing pagan doctrine in place of truth. Reading what the Bible actually says instead of trying to search the scriptures to try to substantiate a preconceived idea. |
TBax, I meant to comment on this a while back, and hadn't gotten to it. I don't disagree with the motives of the founders of the Witnesses, if indeed these were their motives. To be dependent on the teaching of scripture, even if that means one thinks independently of the religious teaching prevalent in one's time is a position I wholeheartedly support. Would God the Witnesses today would continue to do this.
But I wish you'd give the rest of us the same credit. Many of us are seeking the truth of God in scripture, not the least bit interested in the religious teaching around us, but you write any of us who are not Witnesses off as deceived. Even some among your fellow Witnesses don't do this. I have had Witnesses stop at my house who at least acknowleged they appreciated my hunger for God and for His truth. And there are many such people on this board, including luvnlife, who your Witness brothers tell you you shouldn't even talk to.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Good job avoiding the question again. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | but you write any of us who are not Witnesses off as deceived. |
I don't write deceived people off. I try to help them. But Zathrus, you are deceived and you refuse to follow the course of logic. That is why you do not answer the questions I give you, but write them off as questions that are not possible. You didn't answer the question, and your response simply nullified the the intent of the question.
I too appreciate when people have a hunger for spiritual food. But when people refuse to use logic or reasonableness I am under no obligation to keep speaking in such an unproductive dialogue. This is currently where I am with you.
In 2 current conversations you have refused to use logic, and follow the point I am making. You want to believe what you want to believe, and not be shown you are wrong. That is your decision. But to understand you are avoiding the points I make is my realization. That causes me to realize discussion with you is not productive, and you do not care what I am saying. 
That is fine. But to pretend you answered my question is laughable. You totally avoided it.
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Agape,
TBax |
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