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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: Protest disrupts bishop's sermon |
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| Quote: | As Bishop Robinson began his sermon a member of the congregation repeatedly called him a "heretic" and said "repent, repent, repent".
He began his sermon by saying how sad it was that the Anglican Communion was tearing itself apart.
But he was stopped when the man in the congregation shouted that the schism was the bishop's fault... |
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hat lady
Tadpole
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Homosexuality and the Bible |
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Where do you get the impression that the Bible endorses Homosexuality of any kind?
To say that homsexuality is a sin that stems from idol worship, including worhsip of self and new age worship is Biblical!
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions, for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural functions of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving the due penalty in their own persons of their error.
Just so you don't go thinking that this passage is only for pagan idol worshippers and that gays who are in loving relationships are in the clear with God, let's go to the OT.
Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 23:1 No one who is emasculated or has his male memeber cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord.
Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them.
Now if you think by some wild stretch of the imagination that these proscriptions still only apply to those who do these things as part of a pagan idol ritual and that loving gay monogamous couples are condoned by God for their worship of Him in their hearts and becuase they are loving, responbsible, monogomous folks, then lets' go back to the NT.
I Corinthians 6:9, 10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor rvilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
It goes on to say that some of all these groups had stopped, had turned around, had repented and moved on in Christ, not repented and continued in sins, and that having moved on from continuance in sin they are washed, they are clean, they are sanctified, they are justified by Christ.
How do you come to the conlusion that believing what the Bible says about gays constitutes bigotry against them?
Like God we must hate the sin and love the sinner!
I have an Uncle who is a gay scientist a very bright and loving fellow, who is in a long term monogamous relationship with a man. I love my Uncle dearly and I do not beat him over the head with what the Bible teaches, but I hate his sin, I really do... I accept him and his partner who dearly loves him into my heart and my life, but I do not believe for a single solitary second that either of them is going to heaven, they will burn in hell, and I will be crying for both of them, I love both of them. My Uncle beleives that Jesus never rose from the dead or was God, he believes that God is everything that was ever created in the universe. This is a from of idolatry, any concept that is the opposite in philosophy from who God is is a from of idolatry. This is why he became gay, he began to entertain erroneous thoughts about who God is and as Romans I says, God gave him over to a depraved mind to do that which is improper.
Scientists have been unable to prove that being gay is genetic, comes directly from a broken home, or that it is a spiritual dispensation one is born with; these are all sceintifically unproven theories...
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Hi my name is hat lady and I like to do Bible Study Expository Sola Scriputra stlye. I am open to exploration of the scriputres. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Homosexuality and the Bible |
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| Quote: | | quote="hat lady"-Where do you get the impression that the Bible endorses Homosexuality of any kind? |
The omission of gay couples or relationship in the bible should not be the reason to say it's not endorsed. If God is love and for love and for the treatment of one's neighbor as self, that is one reason it can be said to endorse homosexuality. Even more so, Jesus' mentioning of eunuchs is an endorsement. A deep study of eunuchs can show that, historically, there were man made eunuchs and there were natural eunuchs. Same sex attractions and same sex interactions were associated with the natural eunuchs. A difference between man made and natural eunuchs is evident when studied. One was supposedly curable (natural). The other was not (man made). Needless to say, the supposed cure was not true (smile).
| Quote: | | To say that homsexuality is a sin that stems from idol worship, including worhsip of self and new age worship is Biblical! |
Yes, it's biblical. Roman 1 is a great example of this. The CONTEXT of the text is indeed idol worship. Its references to images is case in point. The sex related rituals that were involved in some culture's idol worship is yet another case in point. It, however, does not make any sense to read this text and say it condemns all same sex relationships when the CONTEXT of the text has nothing to do with same sex relationships. To do that is like saying a story about killing someone in cold blood implies killing someone in self defense is unacceptable. Or like saying a woman getting raped by her husband is okay because they are married. Context and intent behind one's actions is vital. The context of Romans 1 and the intent of those involved in the text are critical. And their intent had nothing to do with love except love for an idol image that they themselves created. Their sex based rituals were created by them as well.
| Quote: | Just so you don't go thinking that this passage is only for pagan idol worshippers and that gays who are in loving relationships are in the clear with God, let's go to the OT.
Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God. |
An interesting rebuttal to this from the very same book called the bible is 1Samuel 16:7. The lesson there is that God looks on the heart (ie. the intention, etc.) while MAN looks on the outward appearances of people and people's actions. God knows more than we do in regards to what someone's intentions are behind what they are doing. I doubt that God is concerned about one's clothes when clothes have NOTHING to do with one's heart.
| Quote: | | Deuteronomy 23:1 No one who is emasculated or has his male memeber cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord. |
Again, God created eunuchs. Eunuchs are known for not being able to procreate. They are, as the bible calls them "dry trees". Makes no sense to cut them off (pun intended) from the assembly of the Lord when God created them with the inability to procreate. Sure, there were reasons for this prohibition, but only for a time and culture. Jesus, however, brought a new time and a new law above all laws.
| Quote: | | Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. |
Translation: You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is idolatry. Again, the context of this text is idolatry in which males were lying with male cult temple prostitutes for ritualistic religious reasons as understood in their own day and time and culture. You can also find a prohibition against eating seafood in the book of Leviticus.
| Quote: | | I Corinthians 6:9, 10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor rvilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. |
Various bible translations have this written in so many different ways. Notice in this one, effeminate and homosexuals are side by side. In other translations, the implication is that the effiminate ARE homosexuals. Here, it is implied that they are not. This implies uncertainty of these words by translators. My own personal study of this verse revealed the following to me:
Effeminate #3120 in Strongs - soft or fine (clothing);figuratively, a catamite.
Luke 7:25 - But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in king's courts.
The word "effeminate" is defined as "soft" in the text. Apparently, those who lived in king's courts wore soft, gorgeous looking clothes. What seems to be more important, though, is that these people lived delicately. I decided to look the term up as well since I was curious about its meaning.
Delicately #5172 - To enfeeble (especially the mind & body) by indulgence;effeminacy ie. luxury or debauchery.
Enfeeble means to weaken or make feeble. Debauchery is seduction and/or corruption. Notice also that "effeminate" is indicated in the definition of "delicately". It is luxury or debauchery. This implies that those who live a life of luxury (ie. those in king's courts) were known to live lives of seduction and/or corruption. One interesting piece of information I found about the "effeminate" term as understood in the 16th - 18th centuries, the term referred to men who were known for being womanizers. Take a read at this paragraph I found online:
"...This is due to the fact that in the 16th through the 18th Centuries the term "effeminate" did not mean what it means to us today. Then the term was applied to a class of men who were notorious womanizers, flamboyantly Heterosexual. These men pursued women as a career, often living off the older rich women whom they seduced. These men were so interested in seducing women that they disdained the world of men to live in the world of women. So instead of being with the men in the hunt, in the tavern, and in the smoking room discussing politics, they spent all their time with women in the parlor, at tea and in the garden gossiping, playing cards and talking fashion. These men were concerned greatly about fashion, but only about male fashion. The most famous of these men was Casanova. This is the kind of man that people thought of in the 16th-18th Century when the word "effeminate" was used..."
Considering that the definition of the term "delicately" meant to weaken the mind and/or body by indulging ones self and that this indulgence seemingly involved luxury and debauchery (seduction/corruption), it is not hard to believe that the core meaning of "delicately" is to have soft morals or loose morals. Its connection to the term "effeminate" is apparent above. Effeminate specifically appears to be a term that is directed at males who exercised soft morals towards wealthy women with the intent of seducing them.
| Quote: | | Like God we must hate the sin and love the sinner! |
It is very difficult to be like God considering that we are human and are unable to really know all God knows. So, we can treat others as best as we can and have our personal viewpoints about various issues, but we cannot know all that God knows and get it all 100% correct as only God can. So, you can love the homosexual and hate their lifestyle as homosexuals, but that does not necessarily mean that you are justified in hating their lifestyle when their lifestyle is pretty much like a heterosexual's lifestyle. The object of their affection is just the same gender. We have more in common than you think.
| Quote: | | I have an Uncle who is a gay scientist a very bright and loving fellow, who is in a long term monogamous relationship with a man. I love my Uncle dearly and I do not beat him over the head with what the Bible teaches, but I hate his sin, I really do... I accept him and his partner who dearly loves him into my heart and my life, but I do not believe for a single solitary second that either of them is going to heaven, they will burn in hell, and I will be crying for both of them, I love both of them. |
The good thing about God vs. a human is that God's love is far greater, far wider, far more inclusive than a human's love (Ephesians 3:17-19). This is why I believe all people will go to heaven. As Christians, we are taught to forgive and love our enemies. If we are expected to do this and God expects this of us then we can expect the same from God. God will forgive "His" enemies. I do not believe that God will require that they confess Jesus as Lord and then send them to a place called Hell. Your love for your uncle is good, but, unfortunately, it is not like God's love as far as I can see.
| Quote: | | Scientists have been unable to prove that being gay is genetic, comes directly from a broken home, or that it is a spiritual dispensation one is born with; these are all sceintifically unproven theories.. |
Even if it could be proven, I think you would still be stuck in your own idolatry: doing what the bible says as if it speaks to you. There is a constant struggle between the spirit and the letter (what is written). I believe the spirit should prevail over the letter. |
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Key of Twilight
Big Hamster
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Homosexuality and the Bible |
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| summertime wrote: | | I believe the spirit should prevail over the letter. |
I agree with you, only problem is to truly learn something from the spirit you have to learn it directly from the spirit and not through the words of someone else(unless the spirit is speaking through them). So you can never really know whether people are truly teaching something of the spirit until you receive that knowledge from the spirit yourself. This also makes it hard to pass on knowledge you have received from the spirit on to others.
_________________
Nowhere does the Bible state that the sexual orientation of homosexuality is sinful — it merely instructs anyone, gay or straight, that any sexual act that does not spring from a place of love, respect and commitment to the other person involved is sinful. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Homosexuality and the Bible |
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| Key of Twilight wrote: | | summertime wrote: | | I believe the spirit should prevail over the letter. |
I agree with you, only problem is to truly learn something from the spirit you have to learn it directly from the spirit and not through the words of someone else(unless the spirit is speaking through them). So you can never really know whether people are truly teaching something of the spirit until you receive that knowledge from the spirit yourself. This also makes it hard to pass on knowledge you have received from the spirit on to others. |
This is why one must test the spirits. Keep what is good of it and discard the bad. |
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