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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | "Jesus died not to show us that a sinless life is possible, but IMPOSSIBLE!" |
SINLESSNESS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBEDIENCE
Actually, eleven, SilverSurfer said that "the whole purpose of Jesus Christ's life on earth was to prove that man can keep the commandments, as long as that person relies upon God." He did not say, "that man can be sinless." You must have read that into his statement.
DID GOD REQUIRE THE IMPOSSIBLE?
You asked, "I would really LOVE to know where you get this from. None of this is scriptural, nor is it possible." While your reading of the statement (that we can be sinless) might be impossible, the truth of the statement (that we can keep God's commandments) is not impossible. Otherwise, God would have required Israel to do something that was not possible for them to do.
So, if your statement is true, Why do you suppose God would ask Israel to keep His commandments, if He knew it was impossible for them to do so?
DID JESUS REQUIRE THE IMPOSSIBLE?
And why would Jesus tell the Israelites to "be perfect, in the same way that your Father in heaven is perfect", if it weren't possible for them to be so? And when Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," did he really mean to say, "I can do everything through Christ Jesus except keep God's commandments," because that's impossible? Are we allowed to read that sort of philosophy into these verses?
WHAT ARE WE REALLY AVOIDING?
I guess a better question would be, Where in Scripture did you get the idea that we are incapable of (and thus not responsible for) keeping God's law? |
ok, several points here GC.
1) I did not read anything extra into SS's post.
What he said was, we can do just as Jesus did in being in perfect obedience to the commandments.
No we can't. Because if we were in perfect obedience to the commandments, we would be just like Jesus (who, may I point out, WAS SINLESS)
How can a person be in perfect obedience to the commandments, yet NOT be without sin. Impossible.
Yet it is equally impossible to be just like Jesus, because Jesus was perfect.
What SS is implying is that we can also be perfect.
Two points wrong with that.
1) Forget it, we can't. We are sinners.
2)In claiming one CAN be perfect is to deny what Jesus did for us thru the crucifixion and resurrection.
What SS is basically saying is, No thanks Jesus, I can do it myself. Good luck!
Last point. In scripture where it says, be perfect just as your Father is perfect. The reference to "perfect" there means to be "mature."
Apparently SS missed that as well.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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I'm curious where these people are who keep all of God's law. I've never seen one.
And I know I'm out of the running.  
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | I'm curious where these people are who keep all of God's law. I've never seen one.
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What he said!!!
(me neither. )
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | I'm curious where these people are who keep all of God's law. I've never seen one.
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What he said!!!
(me neither. :oops: ) |
The Bible tells us that they are here, in this world, now.
And, the reason you have not seen any is because you are in the wrong church ?
WHY ?
Any person who keeps God's commandments, would not go to a church on Sunday, because that is NOT the Lord's Day.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: |
Any person who keeps God's commandments, would not go to a church on Sunday, because that is NOT the Lord's Day. |
That's the Lord's Day that all Trinitarians are supposed to keep, and if God is a Trinity, as you believe, then you ought to be there too. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: |
Any person who keeps God's commandments, would not go to a church on Sunday, because that is NOT the Lord's Day. |
That's the Lord's Day that all Trinitarians are supposed to keep, and if God is a Trinity, as you believe, then you ought to be there too. |
I'm not sure what your hangup is on this trinity thing, But I observe the Lord's Day, the 7th day sabbath, just like Jesus Christ set the example of doing, for Christians.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | I'm not sure what your hangup is on this trinity thing, But I observe the Lord's Day, the 7th day sabbath, just like Jesus Christ set the example of doing, for Christians. |
The "trinity thing" determines whether you follow the Pope, or the God of the Bible. If you, as a Trinitarian, observe a day other than the first day of the week, it matters not, since you still do not honor the Christ of Scriptures.
You had better get the "who" straight before the "how" when it comes to honoring God. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | I'm not sure what your hangup is on this trinity thing, But I observe the Lord's Day, the 7th day sabbath, just like Jesus Christ set the example of doing, for Christians. |
The "trinity thing" determines whether you follow the Pope, or the God of the Bible. If you, as a Trinitarian, observe a day other than the first day of the week, it matters not, since you still do not honor the Christ of Scriptures.
You had better get the "who" straight before the "how" when it comes to honoring God. |
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?
Sunday, is the Pope's day.
The 7th day sabbath, is the Lord's day.
And this is where Romans 6:16 comes into play.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: |
Any person who keeps God's commandments, would not go to a church on Sunday, because that is NOT the Lord's Day. |
That's the Lord's Day that all Trinitarians are supposed to keep, and if God is a Trinity, as you believe, then you ought to be there too. |
I am so tired of this subject, I can't even tell ya, because we have been thru this over and over a gazillion times.
Show me anywhere where God says the seventh day Sabbath is on Saturday.
OR
Show me anywhere where God condemns a Sunday Sabbath.
ALSO, let me bend your minds a bit, if your think you can tolerate it.
Let's go back to Genesis, shall we?
What is a day in human terms? It is a 24 hour period, designated by a name. HOWEVER, God did not create the "day" as we know it until GOD's 4th day!
In other words, God's 4th day was OUR 1st day. Therefore when God finally rested on HIS 7th day, it would have been our TUESDAY, not Saturday.
Let's keep going-------
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Sunday is the first day of the week. The division of time into seven-day weeks is traditional, and having weekly days of rest is specifically a gift of the Jews.
The seven-day week as we understand it was, if not originated, at least definitively justified by the Jews. Genesis 2:3 points out that the seventh day was the day on which God rested from creation, and the Law of Moses mandates that the seventh day is to be a day of rest for all - including slaves and even animals (Deuteronomy 5:13-14). In Jewish tradition, Saturday is the Sabbath,
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NOTE HERE: It was MOSES who established that Saturday was the Sabbath, NOT God.
| Quote: | continued......
and certain Christian bodies keep this strict seventh-day sabbatarianism (notably the Seventh-Day Adventists).
But (as Christians believe) Christ was raised on the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1-2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1), after the Sabbath was over. Because of this, Christians traditionally have their primary worship events on Sunday, and the Mosaic sabbatarian regulations were gradually transferred to Sunday among the vast majority of Christians.
Nowadays, both Saturday and Sunday are seen as days of rest, and some calendars show Monday as the first day of the week since it's the first day of the "working week" (Monday-Friday only). You may be familiar with "seven to ten working days" which essentially means two weeks.
Dan Berger
MadSci Administrator
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We can still keep going--------
I would love to hear what you guys do on the Saturday Sabbath. From the moment it starts, until the moment it ends, can you please describe to me what you do, because I bet I can show you that even if the Sabbath is on Saturday, you are still not keeping it holy.
Can't wait to hear from you.
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misery is optional. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: |
Show me anywhere where God says the seventh day Sabbath is on Saturday. |
Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Chapter 24
24:1 Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.
24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
| Quote: |
OR
Show me anywhere where God condemns a Sunday Sabbath. |
Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.
15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
Sunday worship services, are a creation by man....as Jesus Christ NEVER said anything about honoring His resurrection day.
Let's clear this up before moving on, OK ?
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | I would love to hear what you guys do on the Saturday Sabbath. From the moment it starts, until the moment it ends, can you please describe to me what you do, because I bet I can show you that even if the Sabbath is on Saturday, you are still not keeping it holy.
Can't wait to hear from you. |
I get the impression that for SS it's not what you should do, but what you shouldn't do on the seventh day of the week.
Myself? I don't observe either day as special. I go with Paul, who never demanded that Gentile Christians observe Jewish festival days, weekly or annual, although he, as a Jew, observed them all.
I certainly do not observe the Roman Sunday, since it has no Biblical significance whatever. The seventh day is Jewish, and the first day of the week is Pagan. There you have it, and that's where I leave it. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | eleven wrote: | I would love to hear what you guys do on the Saturday Sabbath. From the moment it starts, until the moment it ends, can you please describe to me what you do, because I bet I can show you that even if the Sabbath is on Saturday, you are still not keeping it holy.
Can't wait to hear from you. |
I get the impression that for SS it's not what you should do, but what you shouldn't do on the seventh day of the week.
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Sabbath observance includes helping the poor...visiting nursing homes...Bible study.....
| Pete wrote: | | Myself? I don't observe either day as special. I go with Paul, who never demanded that Gentile Christians observe Jewish festival days, weekly or annual, although he, as a Jew, observed them all. |
Paul kept the 7th day sabbath (Acts 17:2)
| Pete wrote: | | I certainly do not observe the Roman Sunday, since it has no Biblical significance whatever. The seventh day is Jewish, and the first day of the week is Pagan. There you have it, and that's where I leave it. |
Wrong......
The 7th day sabbath is NOT Jewish.
God calls it HIS DAY (Isaiah 58:13,14...Ezekiel 20:12,20....Mark 2:28 )
The 7th day sabbath ws created some 2300 +years... before...there ever was a jew.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | eleven wrote: |
Show me anywhere where God says the seventh day Sabbath is on Saturday. |
Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Chapter 24
24:1 Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.
24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. |
Ya know, I read thru that 3 times, and I have yet to find the word "Saturday" in there anywhere.
| Quote: |
OR
Show me anywhere where God condemns a Sunday Sabbath. |
| SilverSurfer wrote: |
Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? |
Are you freakin' kidding me?
This is Jesus' answer to the Pharisees question:
Why didn't your disciples wash their hands before eating!!!
| SilverSurfer wrote: |
15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.
15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. |
Which has nothing to do with anything.
This still doesn't clarify which day is the Sabbath.
So I don't even know why you posted this.
| SilverSurfer wrote: |
Sunday worship services, are a creation by man....as Jesus Christ NEVER said anything about honoring His resurrection day. |
And the declaration of a particular day for the Sabbath was brought into law by MOSES, who - last time I checked, was a MAN!!! And still never said that SATURDAY was the day.
| SilverSurfer wrote: |
Let's clear this up before moving on, OK ? |
Let's do that.
Exodus 16
16This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
17And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.
18And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.
19And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
20Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
21And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.
22And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
24And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
[b]25And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.[/b]
All this says is that for 6 days they worked gathering food, and on the 7th, they observed the Sabbath.
It doesn't say that the first day of the work began on Sunday, and ended Friday, making Saturday the Sabbath. For all you know, they could have started gathering food on Thursday, worked thru until Tuesday, and observed the Sabbath on Wednesday.
The fact that the Jewish Sabbath is observed on Saturday is nothing more than a tradition, just as the Christian Sunday is a tradition BOTH established by men walking the earth.
God worked 6 days, then rested for one, and claimed the day of rest was to be holy.
So if I work for 6 days, then make Monday holy, I'm gonna burn in hell??
Ya know, thru out the Bible, God never once had difficulty being specific whenever He wanted things a certain way-
From the exact design of the garments the Levites wore, to the color of the curtains in His temple, God stated specifically what He wanted. But oddly enough, He never stated by name, which day of the week He wanted us to observe as the Sabbath. Now why do you think that is?
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | eleven wrote: | I would love to hear what you guys do on the Saturday Sabbath. From the moment it starts, until the moment it ends, can you please describe to me what you do, because I bet I can show you that even if the Sabbath is on Saturday, you are still not keeping it holy.
Can't wait to hear from you. |
I get the impression that for SS it's not what you should do, but what you shouldn't do on the seventh day of the week.
Myself? I don't observe either day as special. I go with Paul, who never demanded that Gentile Christians observe Jewish festival days, weekly or annual, although he, as a Jew, observed them all.
I certainly do not observe the Roman Sunday, since it has no Biblical significance whatever. The seventh day is Jewish, and the first day of the week is Pagan. There you have it, and that's where I leave it. |
Thank you, Pete!
Now see, was that so hard?
I mean, seems to me, you understood what I was asking right away.
Now am I speaking Chinese, or what is the problem that I just can't seem to get my meaning across to SS?
Help me out here, will ya Bro?
SS--
NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT ONE OF THE COMMANDMENTS IS TO KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY.
WE ALL KNOW THAT!
MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THE SABBATH WAS MEANT TO BE ON SATURDAY?????
Nobody, not even God Himself called the Sabbath by a specific weekday name.
All it says in both Genesis and Exodus is that God worked for 6 days, then kept the next one as a day of rest, which is what we are to do. But NOWHERE, does it designate SATURDAY AS THAT DAY!!!
Now if YOU want to use Saturday as the Sabbath, then do so, but for crying out loud, stop telling people that it MUST be Saturday because God never said that!!!
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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We know when our Saturday is. But I doubt very much that their calendar was the same as ours! How do we know when God's first day of work was? 
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