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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Ironically, the very act of trying to prove our Christianity to the world, could very easily prove the contrary, if our motivation is not from God but from our self. (Mat 7:22)
That is why grace is given to those that have faith in Christ. And our justification is by only His grace.
THe only evidence of being filled with the spirit is in the follwing verses.
| Eph 5 wrote: | 18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; |
Interestingly, a very similar attitiude is also associated with the word of Christ dwelling in you:
| col 3 wrote: | 15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. |
Only by being in the Word can we be transformed to be the person that Christ intended for us to be. But this is a growth process and people are different levels of this growth process. No one has achieved the perfection of Jesus Christ. To say that a persons proof if being a Christian is if they Love God and their neighboor makes no account for growth in grace for the new Christian. Although it is probably evidence (but not proof) of a mature Christian.
But only the person claiming to be a Christian by loving their God (and God) knows what their true motivation is.
Immature Christians may "serve" God but if their motivation is "Hey look at me" for the the world to see. Then that is a work that will be burned up(stubble).
Futhermore if a professing Christian is saying to God "Hey look what I did for you, this proves that I deserve to goto heaven", then this person has not trusted Christ for their saviour and is trying to rely on their own works. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | "The commandment-obsession displayed by such groups as the Adventists does not produce the fruit of love." |
Hold on, Zathrus... Seventh-day Adventists, by and large, are not "commandment obsessed." They are a beautiful, gentle, loving people. So be careful not to judge an entire denomination by the one "commandment obsessed" Adventist on this forum (he does not represent the heart and mind of the Seventh-day Adventist Church). In fact, the vast majority of SDAs would be utterly appalled at his comments and behavior on this site. So, please, don't judge an entire people by just one example of their numbers. |
GC, it wasn't by accident that I referred to the Adventists rather than one specific Adventist. I am going by the representatives (plural) from their denomination who have visited this board and the other Christianity related boards I visit. A few haven't been around since you have come onboard, but like comets coming back every so many years, they stop in from time to time. If you have the time and interest to go over the other pages of this forum and look at old threads, lengthy, spirited and interesting discussions with them can be found there.
I think that is wonderful that you know beautiful, kind and gentle Adventists. I think Adventist teaching is none of those things, and I have tried to point out to our Adventist friends that the teaching they absorb is not doing them any good. I think the fruit of that teaching shows in the Adventists who have visited this board.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| YLTYLT wrote: | | Ironically, the very act of trying to prove our Christianity to the world, could very easily prove the contrary, if our motivation is not from God but from our self. (Mat 7:22) |
That's an excellent point YLTYLT.
I think we often minister the gospel most effectively when we just let Jesus be Himself in us.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | A better description of Satan's attitude would be 'did God really say those things'? Bringing doubt on God's word. |
How does Satan's attitude compare/contrast with the attitude of the Bereans (Acts 17:11)?
Is God angry with us when we ask the same question that Satan asked? Is the problem with the questioning or the attitude behind the questioning? |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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The difference between the question of Satan and that of the Bereans is that Satan knows ahead of time what the answer is and asks anyway to bring doubt on God's word and the Bereans might not be sure and they seek to confirm whether or not a thing is God's word.
Knowledge drives out faith Satan knew God in heaven and still rejected him. Humans rarely have any kind of real experience of God in that same sense as Satan. Our experiences are "through a mirror darkly" as Paul wrote only later in heaven will we be face to face with God. So no human has yet seen God, nor do they know God in the same way as Satan. We are not as accountable as Satan for our sins because of this.
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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The entire Bible shows the conflict between satan and God...over God's Law.
From Genesis to Revelation has this been shown.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | The entire Bible shows the conflict between satan and God...over God's Law.
From Genesis to Revelation has this been shown. |
This, in my opinion, is the truest thing you have ever posted.
As for your question, I will leave the matter of proof for the day I stand before Him to be judged.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| James wrote: |
Sounds like He changed or magnified the law - Form Thou shalt not commit adultery to - adultery is defined as lust and not just the act.
From thou shalt not kill to - being angry or even calling one a fool is breaking of this commandment.
From keeping the 7th day sabbath as a day of rest to - having our rest in Him everyday. |
I would say you are correct.
So where are you going with this?
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: |
That is the whole purpose of Jesus Christ's life on earth....to prove that man can keep the commandments, as long as that person relies upon God.....just as Jesus Christ did.
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I would really LOVE to know where you get this from.
None of this is scriptural, nor is it possible.
Jesus died not to show us that a sinless life is possible, but IMPOSSIBLE! Only His sacrifice makes us right with God - NOTHING else.
It is very admirable that you want to be as sinless as possible. That is wonderful. But eventually somewhere you are going to mess up. It is inevitable just because you are human. So whoever is teaching you that a life of sinlessness is possible is doing nothing but instilling paranoia in you, and that isn't God's message either.
Scripture states it plainly - There are NONE righteous, NO NOT ONE. But ok, if you want to try and disprove scripture go right ahead. What you are saying is, God's word isn't true.
Gee whiz, it looks like you have kind of placed yourself in a Catch 22, wouldn't you say?
The point of the crucifixion was NOT that we can walk sinless thru life - but that Jesus has removed it from us.
Praise God!!!
The point of the crucifixion was to demonstrate that not even death can separate us from the Father who loves us. End of story.
So please, cut yourself a break and stop trying to be another Savior will ya? It's all been done before.
When Jesus said, "It is finished" that's EXACTLY what He meant.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | The difference between the question of Satan and that of the Bereans is that Satan knows ahead of time what the answer is and asks anyway to bring doubt on God's word and the Bereans might not be sure and they seek to confirm whether or not a thing is God's word. |
I agree.
| Quote: | | Knowledge drives out faith. |
I think we must have knowledge in order to have faith. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | 45degreeN wrote: | | The difference between the question of Satan and that of the Bereans is that Satan knows ahead of time what the answer is and asks anyway to bring doubt on God's word and the Bereans might not be sure and they seek to confirm whether or not a thing is God's word. |
I agree.
| Quote: | | Knowledge drives out faith. |
I think we must have knowledge in order to have faith. |
AMEN BROTHER!!
Now there is somebody who gets it.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: |
I think we must have knowledge in order to have faith. |
Truly.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 704
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | "Jesus died not to show us that a sinless life is possible, but IMPOSSIBLE!" |
SINLESSNESS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBEDIENCE
Actually, eleven, SilverSurfer said that "the whole purpose of Jesus Christ's life on earth was to prove that man can keep the commandments, as long as that person relies upon God." He did not say, "that man can be sinless." You must have read that into his statement.
DID GOD REQUIRE THE IMPOSSIBLE?
You asked, "I would really LOVE to know where you get this from. None of this is scriptural, nor is it possible." While your reading of the statement (that we can be sinless) might be impossible, the truth of the statement (that we can keep God's commandments) is not impossible. Otherwise, God would have required Israel to do something that was not possible for them to do.
So, if your statement is true, Why do you suppose God would ask Israel to keep His commandments, if He knew it was impossible for them to do so?
DID JESUS REQUIRE THE IMPOSSIBLE?
And why would Jesus tell the Israelites to "be perfect, in the same way that your Father in heaven is perfect", if it weren't possible for them to be so? And when Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," did he really mean to say, "I can do everything through Christ Jesus except keep God's commandments," because that's impossible? Are we allowed to read that sort of philosophy into these verses?
WHAT ARE WE REALLY AVOIDING?
I guess a better question would be, Where in Scripture did you get the idea that we are incapable of (and thus not responsible for) keeping God's law? |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | The entire Bible shows the conflict between satan and God...over God's Law.
From Genesis to Revelation has this been shown. |
This, in my opinion, is the truest thing you have ever posted. |
For you to have said this tells me, that you have studied youir Bible.
It also tells me that you understand what the Gospel message ( Plan of Salvation) really is.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 704
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| SilverSurfer wrote: | | "For you to have said this tells me, that you have studied your Bible." |
Just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean they've studied their Bible; nor does it mean they haven't studied their Bible if someone disagrees with you.
| SilverSurfer wrote: | | "It also tells me that you understand what the Gospel message ( Plan of Salvation) really is." |
Here's a perfect example: you mentioned knowing the "gospel" - but the Greek word euangelion (translated as gospel in most English Bibles) means "good news" and it was originally an official imperial pronouncement that was sent across the Roman empire - primarily concerning military victories.
Euangelion was thus adopted by the early Christians to describe a divine pronouncement across the Roman empire concerning Christ's victory over death.
The problem is, we use the English word gospel to mean what we want it to mean, without taking into account what the original Christians meant by it. And thus, we create our own doctrinal beliefs that don't necessarily have anything to do with Biblical teaching.
NEITHER ASSUME NOR JUDGE
We think it best not to assume that another poster understood or agreed with your version of the "gospel message" - when it is more likely, in fact, that they disagree with your interpretation on the larger scale and merely agreed with a very small part of what you were saying.
We believe it best to simply share our thoughts, without assuming what others do or do not believe. But, even more important than that, we believe it best not to judge others by how much they agree or disagree with us.
Does that make sense? |
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