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Scorp
Goldfish
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 58
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 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Good rebuttal. It shows to what lengths people like you are willing to go to defend thier strongly held views. 
| Quote: | | However, life nature, etc, is not a static system with one function to be performed in an established setting ... |
No one knows that better than an advocate of evolution. But there is only one function. Reproduction. You probably know it as going forth and multiplying.  |
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Bouncer
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: Re: Designed??? I don't think so ahni. |
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| joman wrote: | | Quote: | | 1. No two living systems are alike. |
The underlying dna structure of all biological systems is the same.
There are many sub-systems that are identical throughout the immensity of diverse creatures. |
Only if you redefine identical.
Redefinition is standard practice for Intelligent Design.
The movement itself is Creationism redefined.
They substitute the word 'designed' when they mean created. It's a semantic dodge to appear scientific.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | 2. Living systems are overwhelmingly inefficient. |
Biological systems have been designed by God to be energy inefficient. |
You know how hard it is to convince a rational person you know God's intent?
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BTW, they have to be inefficient (if you can't figure out why this is so then, your ignorance or inaptitude proves that you aren't qualified to judge God's ability to design.) |
Oh I so love a mystery. Tell me that you will ultimately share your superior knowledge and wisdom. Please?
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Apparently you assume that energy efficiency is the ultimate criteria which isn't. Especially so in biological systems. |
If you didn't assume correctly my assumptions does that mean you are also wrong when you assumed to know God's intention and that the above can be ignored as a terrible assumption?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | 3. No engineer would keep his or her job if the systems they designed required 25 to 40% downtime for their designs. |
Where have you been all your life?
Take the energy efficient power plants (33%) they are down for months at a time.
A true designer allows time for maintenance. |
So? in case you didn't notice 33% is not 25 nor is it 40%. I think an engineer could feel safe with that number. Even 34. But I think 35 is a little unsafe.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | 4. Replication(reproduction) is inefficient. |
As in not enough offspring?
Call population control and see what they say. |
You just knew what I was thinking above. Why don't you amaze the audience and tell us what I was thinking when I typed this? It would be fun.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | a. Only 25% of Giraffes born reach maturity. |
And thats how it should be given the fallen world (not as originally designed) we inhabit.
God gave great abilities of survival to all creatures. |
You mean sin dont you? How do creationists quantify sin anyway. Is there a measurement like joules or kelvins? Maybe a ratings system like hurricanes. Maybe lusting in your heart would be like a category 1 where mass murder or accepting the Theory of Evolution would be a category 5 or even 6?
Does sin have quantum states? Did the introduction of sin into the world alter our genetic structure? Can we determine the date of this occurrance?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | 5. Replication is imperfect. |
Define imperfect. Or, define perfect. Perfect what?
My point is that you are not aware of the design parameters nor the design requirements which is why you comprehension is so NOT. |
But you are aware of the design parameters and the design requirements. You said so above. Why don't you take one feature of life say the respiratory system and post the design requirements? In fact you can make it simpler than that.
Post the requirement that requires the air intake system to be inside the fuel intake. Why did God put this potentially fatal setup together. You do know that the entrance to your lungs is inside your esophagus? You also know how many people choke to death every year while eating.
If you can't perhaps you could post an apology and admission that you lie for God.
_________________
...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, ... 1 John 4:1
Shouldn't that include the Bible? -- Bouncer
"In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it. " --Mustafa Akyol Islamonline |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Scorp, could you explain the reasons for your drive by attacks? Also, could you explain your justifications for these remarks?
| Quote: | | It shows to what lengths people like you are willing to go to defend thier strongly held views. |
What am I like exactly and what 'strongly held views' are you assuming that I am defending? Perhaps you simply did not read the portion of my post, which you quoted, in context?
As for this:
| Quote: | | No one knows that better than an advocate of evolution. But there is only one function. Reproduction. You probably know it as going forth and multiplying. |
I disagree.
However, I do understand that you are thinking of the ultimate purpose of a living organism which is to reproduce, but that does not preclude functionality in a variety of ways.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Scorp
Goldfish
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Scorp, could you explain the reasons for your drive by attacks? Also, could you explain your justifications for these remarks? |
You haven't been attacked. You have been called to task for your insulting remarks to a poster here.
| Quote: | Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:21 am Post subject:
Wow, a very long post to say exactly the same thing: Because 'life' doesn't work the way you think it should you maintain that it could not have been designed that way...
Nonsense. |
Now, that is an attack, Rev. It is subjective and derogatory towards a poster who went to great lengths to explain his position on this subject.
Aside from precluding functionality, as you put it, reproduction is ultimately what life is about. Without reproduction, and and asexual replication, life would not exist. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You haven't been attacked. You have been called to task for your insulting remarks to a poster here. |
I don't think you understand what 'called to task' actually means.
There were no challenges to my assertion that what I understood Bouncer to be stating was nonsense, simply a quick little jab with no purpose but to insult.
Now, if you would care to address my questions to you regarding your comments... (which in fact were calling you to task).
| Quote: | | Aside from precluding functionality, as you put it, reproduction is ultimately what life is about. Without reproduction, and and asexual replication, life would not exist. |
I don't disagree, however that does not preclude that it isn't what I had stated either.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, but why do you think Bouncer's post is 'nonsense'?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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Scorp
Goldfish
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | You haven't been attacked. You have been called to task for your insulting remarks to a poster here. |
I don't think you understand what 'called to task' actually means. |
I simply saw alot of thought go into a post and your reply was "nonsense". I'm not sure if I would want to post in a discussion where that was the rebuttal. If I had thought it was nonsense, I would not have taken the time to express my views.
| Quote: | | There were no challenges to my assertion that what I understood Bouncer to be stating was nonsense, simply a quick little jab with no purpose but to insult. |
Nonsense.
| Quote: | | Now, if you would care to address my questions to you regarding your comments... (which in fact were calling you to task). |
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Aside from precluding functionality, as you put it, reproduction is ultimately what life is about. Without reproduction, and and asexual replication, life would not exist. |
I don't disagree, however that does not preclude that it isn't what I had stated either. |
You stated: "However, life nature, etc, is not a static system with one function to be performed in an established setting ..."
Do you mean like a sewing machine is? Then why do you refer to it as Intelligent Design? Is life designed, like a sewing machine, or is it not? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Nice bob and weave Scorp.
I asked you; in response to your attack on me:
| Quote: | | Quote: | Quote:
It shows to what lengths people like you are willing to go to defend thier strongly held views. |
What am I like exactly and what 'strongly held views' are you assuming that I am defending? Perhaps you simply did not read the portion of my post, which you quoted, in context? |
As for this:
| Quote: | | I simply saw alot of thought go into a post and your reply was "nonsense". |
You did not read this?
| Quote: | | So what you are saying is that because things don't work the way you think they should it means they were not designed that way? |
| Quote: | Wow, a very long post to say exactly the same thing: Because 'life' doesn't work the way you think it should you maintain that it could not have been designed that way...
Nonsense. |
Now then. I understand that y'all may want to focus on one word I posted and ignore the rest, however, I have clearly stated why I think Bouncer's assertions were nonsense. Thus far I've seen nothing from him that demonstrates that my summary of his argument does not clarify the underlying foundation of his remarks.
Now, hopefully I can get "drive-by" Scorp to tell me what I am exactly ("people like you") and what my 'strongly held views' are...
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Scorp
Goldfish
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Nice bob and weave Scorp.....
Now then. I understand that y'all may want to focus on one word I posted and ignore the rest, however, I have clearly stated why I think Bouncer's assertions were nonsense. Thus far I've seen nothing from him that demonstrates that my summary of his argument does not clarify the underlying foundation of his remarks.
Now, hopefully I can get "drive-by" Scorp to tell me what I am exactly ("people like you") and what my 'strongly held views' are... |
Quit grandstanding. Let's get back to the topic. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Let's get back to the topic. |
No problem.
Just know that if you are going to make personal attacks of no substance, you will be called to task.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Bouncer
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: The long awaited response |
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| RevJP wrote: | Wow, a very long post to say exactly the same thing: Because 'life' doesn't work the way you think it should you maintain
that it could not have been designed that way... |
I said nothing about functionality (how things work) in living systems. Nor have I expressed an opinion on how I think life should work.
Those are two different topics.
My position is it was not 'designed' at all. Much less designed in any particular fashion.
| Quote: | Nonsense.
BTW, I've never seen a sewing machine designed by God so I would be unable to compare what His design might be with one designed by man.
However, life nature, etc, is not a static system with one function to be performed in an established setting such as a sewing machine,
thus your analogy is woefully deficient to support your point. |
Ok you pick the system and let's compare. OR are you saying ID's cannot be compared to HD's(Human Designs)? If true, then how can we call it 'design?'
_________________
...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, ... 1 John 4:1
Shouldn't that include the Bible? -- Bouncer
"In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it. " --Mustafa Akyol Islamonline |
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Scorp
Goldfish
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | Let's get back to the topic. |
No problem.
Just know that if you are going to make personal attacks of no substance, you will be called to task. |
Yes, and deservedly so.  |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Bouncer wrote: | | I said nothing about functionality (how things work) in living systems. Nor have I expressed an opinion on how I think life should work. |
I think that functionality is an important aspect of design. Actually it is the driving purpose behind any design.
Functionality and how things work are what design does, doesn't it?
| Quote: | | My position is it was not 'designed' at all. Much less designed in any particular fashion. |
Which I still do not agree with.
I summarized what I understood to be your underlying meaning. You state that there is no design whatsoever and the plethora of reasons you gave to support that assertion all boils down to the same thing. Because you do not see, or do not deign to see the complex workings and inter workings - both known and unknown, of the complex system of life and nature, you decide that there is no design. In essence; you don't like how it was designed so you deny there is a design.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Might anyone post any sign of design in living systems? And no, "it's mind-bogglingly complex" is not evidence.
See, what Bouncer did was say what properties one might expect to find in design, and then showed how living systems don't display any of these properties. Perhaps there is some other property of design that has been overlooked. Anyone care to step up to the plate and take a swing?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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Bouncer
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Bouncer wrote: | | I said nothing about functionality (how things work) in living systems. Nor have I expressed an opinion on how I think life should work. |
I think that functionality is an important aspect of design. Actually it is the driving purpose behind any design.
Functionality and how things work are what design does, doesn't it? |
Functionality is part of design. It is secondary to the initial design and dependent on the requirements of the design.
Efficiency is one measure of functionality. Efficiency can be summarily defined as how well the design functions compared to previously established benchmarks or compared to similar functionality in other systems.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | My position is it was not 'designed' at all. Much less designed in any particular fashion. |
Which I still do not agree with.
I summarized what I understood to be your underlying meaning. You state that there is no design whatsoever and the plethora of reasons you gave to support that assertion all boils down to the same thing.
Because you do not see, or do not deign to see the complex workings and inter workings - both known and unknown, of the complex system of life and nature, you decide that there is no design. In essence; you don't like how it was designed so you deny there is a design. |
What is complex to a five year old is simple to an adult. Complexity is not necessarily and certainly not a primary indicator of design.
Complexity is the primary factor in ID's argument. If I buy what they are selling then I am also acknowledging that their conclusion is absolute. That if they can't figure something out it can't be figured out.
One of the most frequent mistakes first year engineering students make is that they feel a need to make their designs more complex than is needed.
Indeed I had to send an intern back to his desk to simplify the design he was working on today. There is no way it would have been approved for prototyping. Too much unneeded garbage.
_________________
...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, ... 1 John 4:1
Shouldn't that include the Bible? -- Bouncer
"In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it. " --Mustafa Akyol Islamonline |
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