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Repentance, What is it and where does it come from?

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Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> Word Origins - Translations and Original Meanings

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JimD
Bear Cub

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:59 am Post subject:

Quote:

GC & Wife said: I'm sorry. I think it's more plausible that we've completely missed the point of those verses we use to claim such a thing.

These last two posts are a great example of daring to think for ones self, keep up the good work!

This thing of perpetuating several hundred years of error just because it is commonly accepted, gives me mental indigestion. Crying or Very sad

_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JimD
Bear Cub

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:15 am Post subject:

Quote:

JB said: I would for you to disprove this theory. I don't think that you can.

I agree, if what has been offered, and ignored, hasn't given you cause to rethink your position, nothing but the Holy Spirit , and time, will heal your sickness. Crying or Very sad

_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB
Lion King

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1075

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:53 am Post subject:

JimD, Are your afraid of the acid Test? How do you reconcile your position with that of Psalms 51? You have yet made an offer. All you do is prance around the issue. How does Christ come into the world sinless if, we are formed in sin in the womb? I don't want any babbling, just answers. JB

JimD
Bear Cub

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject:

Quote:

JB said: Are your afraid of the acid Test?

When you insist on interpreting a few snippets of scripture in a wooden literal fashion, you leave no room for reasoning in the Spirit, sorry. Everything cannot always be decided on the meaning of one or two words. But if you want to apply some kind of "acid test" on this issue yourself, we're listening. Very Happy

_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB
Lion King

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1075

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject:

JimD, In other words, you cannot support sufficiently what you believe. JB

JimD
Bear Cub

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject:

Quote:

JB said: In other words, you cannot support sufficiently what you believe.

Not for you, sorry. But for the benefit of others:

THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN by JimD
Ps 51:5 David says “ Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. This verse seems to be the main verse that the generally accepted doctrine of original sin comes from. It is not absolutely clear what David is trying to communicate here.
One of the basic principles of interpreting scripture is that the unclear passages should be interpreted by the more clear passages. The following are scriptures that are much easier to understand concerning this subject, In other words let scripture interpret scripture.
God commanded us to marry, conceive and give birth., Genesis 1:27-28 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number”.

Why then would David say marriage and child bearing is sinful, and that we are born sinful when the whole process is clearly blessed by the Lord?

If children are sinners, why did Jesus say we must become like them to enter into the kingdom of God? Matthew 18:1-3 “unless you become as a little child you cannot enter
The kingdom of God. If children are totally depraved as some say, then Jesus gave a very poor example of how adults must become to enter the kingdom.

Because of the clear meaning of these scriptures could it be that David was simply saying that he was conceived and born into a sinful world? Or was this simply a hyperbolic statement?
This world is made sinful by adults, not babies or God.

Adam and Eve were created with the God given freedom to choose to sin or to choose to trust and obey Him. God knew they would choose to sin but without this freedom love would have been meaningless. Obviously this does not make God the author of sin.

In the same way every child is born with the freedom to choose to sin or to choose not to, and is sure to choose to sin if they live long enough.

This does not mean they are born sinners, any more than Adam and Eve were created sinners.

Original sin simply means that as human beings we are sure to fall into sin if we live long enough just as Adam and Eve did.

Therefore we can see that blaming Adam and Eve for sin and saying we are born sinful is to completely miss the fact that we all become guilty for our own sin the exact same way they did (by not believing in God). This sin is credited to Adam simply because he was first and it is common to all humanity except one, Jesus! Thank God that through Him we have the solution to this problem!

The doctrine of original sin is, in fact, no explanation. It is introducing an additional difficulty. For, to say that I am blameworthy or ill-deserving for a sin in which I had no agency is no explanation, but is involving me in an additional difficulty still more perplexing, to ascertain how such a doctrine can possibly be just. The way of wisdom would be, doubtless, to rest satisfied with the simple statement of a fact which the scripture has assumed, without attempting to ex- plain it by a philosophical theory. Calvin accords with the above interpretation: "For we do not so perish by his [Adam’s] crime as if we were ourselves innocent; but Paul ascribes our ruin to him because his sin is THE CAUSE of our sin." The cause of his sin being unbelief.

DUT.1:39
39 'Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 709

Location: Arizona

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject:

JimD wrote:

"To say that I am to blame for a sin in which I had no agency is not an explanation at all, but involves me in an additional difficulty still more perplexing."

Excellent point, Jim. And we must concur, for we would have drawn on the same principles and clear verses you yourself drew upon. As such, we agree that Psalm 51 should be interpreted through the rest of Scripture, and not all of Scripture be interpreted through it. We do not in any way base our beliefs on one verse, especially when that one verse is unclear.

As for Psalm 51, we have always understood it to mean that David thought his mother had committed a sin when she gave birth to him, because he was so distraught by his own behavior (deceit, adultery, and murder) that he sort of "wished he'd never been born." It seems to be a plain and simple commentary on David's own repugnance, especially in light of what Psalm 51 laments.

Instead of continuing the discussion here, however, my wife and I will ask one of those really hard questions concerning the nature of man in a new thread. I would appreciate if both of you would offer your thoughts to the question.

Thanks in advance to both of you. We dearly appreciate your shared passion for God's Word.

Abdullah
Big Hamster

Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 94

Location: Amerika

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject:

JB wrote:

Mattathias,

Here is another way to look at this text.

Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent (Meaning- Change you mind) and believe in the gospel(Believe in the Hope of Christ)."

JB

Repentance in the Bible actually does not mean to change your mind, it means "to return" cf: "תשובה"
The idea, as I understand it, is to return to where you started, or were supposed to be. That when you are sinning, you are doing what is not right. So you must return to doing good.

JimD
Bear Cub

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:39 am Post subject:

Quote:

Abdullah wrote:

As in, make a 180 degree turn, back to the way you were created to be as a little child, which can only be done by belief in Jesus, which involves a change of mind Very Happy

_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

Abdullah
Big Hamster

Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 94

Location: Amerika

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:54 am Post subject:

JimD wrote:

Quote:

Abdullah wrote:

As in, make a 180 degree turn, back to the way you were created to be as a little child, which can only be done by belief in Jesus, which involves a change of mind Very Happy

Well, I'm not sure if Jesus is necessary, nor what believing in him would accomplish. But rather to put a stop to your negative behaviour, and begin doing better.

JimD
Bear Cub

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Abdullah wrote:

Well, I'm not sure if Jesus is necessary, nor what believing in him would accomplish. But rather to put a stop to your negative behaviour, and begin doing better.

Jesus is God in the flesh, showing us what being perfect looks like. And then dying by us and for us, because he knows we cannot be perfect. And yes, this gives us a chance to "do better" because we are not condemned by him or ourself, but are forgiven so we can keep on trying to "do better" as you say. So our perfection is made sure by Jesus and our continuing belief that he did this for us. Isn't that the best news you ever heard?!
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB
Lion King

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1075

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:54 am Post subject:

JimD

You said:

Quote:

Jesus is God in the flesh, showing us what being perfect looks like.

And never let those other people tell you anything different.

Christ is God.

Amen

JB

Abdullah
Big Hamster

Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 94

Location: Amerika

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject:

JimD wrote:

Jesus is God in the flesh,

That is disputable. It is not even stated so clear in the Christian Bible.

JimD wrote:

showing us what being perfect looks like.

Again, not exactly as factual as stated...

JimD wrote:

And then dying by us and for us, because he knows we cannot be perfect.

I did not kill Jesus. So he didnt die by me. And he certainly didnt die for me. I fail to see our imperfection as relevant to the topic of Jesus' execution...

JimD wrote:

to And yes, this gives us a chance to "do better" because we are not condemned by him or ourself, but are forgiven so we can keep on trying to "do better" as you say.

I believe people can do good regardless of who is killed. There were plenty of good people throughout history, long before Jesus, and there have been plenty after. I don't see how Jesus being tortured and executed makes anyone a good person...

JimD wrote:

So our perfection is made sure by Jesus and our continuing belief that he did this for us. Isn't that the best news you ever heard?!

Not really.... I can't see how Jesus would have made himself get executed to make me perfect. I mean, I have overcome much over the years, but I am still far from prefect...

Abdullah
Big Hamster

Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 94

Location: Amerika

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject:

JB wrote:

JimD

You said:

Quote:

Jesus is God in the flesh, showing us what being perfect looks like.

And never let those other people tell you anything different.

Christ is God.

Amen

JB

While there are some references that this may be inferred from, there is, however, substantial evidence that "God" and "Jesus" were totally different characters....

JB
Lion King

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1075

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject:

Abdullah,

You said:

JB

Quote:

While there are some references that this may be inferred from, there is, however, substantial evidence that "God" and "Jesus" were totally different characters..

My friend, after much study, I doubt that Christ is any less than God. He is clearly defined as deity and He is clearly defined as the Logos of God. So what that means is, you must be reading those other verses out of context.

JB

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