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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Arizona
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 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | "The original sin was choosing not to believe God, and everyone from Adam until now becomes guilty of sin the same way he did, by choosing not to believe God. Sin is not something we inherit like a disease. This is made very clear in Ezekiel 18, when the Jews accuse God of “sour grapes”. Consequently no one is a sinner just because Adam, or their father, was a sinner. We all become sinners the same way Adam became a sinner, by not believing God." |
Unfortunately, Jim, my wife and I are in complete agreement with your statement. We've read Scripture from front to back and inside out (trying very hard to keep our traditional Christian upbringing out of the mix), and we've found no trace whatsoever of the idea of "original sin" or even of the idea that sin is something we inherit from our parents.
That's why we keep asking if sin is an action or a thing. If the Greek word means to "miss the mark" - then it is an action, whether or not the word is used as a noun or verb. We understand it like this:
AN ACTION WORD USED AS A NOUN
The word run is an action word. It means to run. Just like "missing the mark" means to "miss the mark." So, if we say, "Let's run around the park," the word run acts as a verb. But, if we say, "Did you compete in the 10K run?" then the word run acts as a noun. But it is still an action word, because the word run means to run, whether it is expressed as a noun or a verb.
We believe the same is true of sin. It means to "miss the mark," which makes it an action. That means, if we understand it correctly, sin cannot exist without a correlating action, because missing the mark means to "miss the mark" - whether it is expressed as a noun or a verb.
Does that make sense? |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1075
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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GC,
Is this not in your Bible?
1. (Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
2. (Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
3. (Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
4. (1 Cor. 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
Guys this debate is over. You are on the edge here.
JB |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | GC said: We believe the same is true of sin. It means to "miss the mark," which makes it an action. That means, if we understand it correctly, sin cannot exist without a correlating action, because missing the mark means to "miss the mark" - whether it is expressed as a noun or a verb.
Does that make sense? |
Is unbelief, before it conceives and brings forth sin, an action? Is unbelief, in the mind, a sin? Is deciding to do something evil a sin, before we actually do it?
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | JB said: Is this not in your Bible?
1. (Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," |
This necessarily implies-IF the children walk in the steps of their fathers; for no man can be condemned by Divine justice for a crime of which he was never guilty.
Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: "'The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-- both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
5 "Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife or lie with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend at usury or take excessive interest. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between man and man.
9 He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD.
10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things
11 (though the father has done none of them): "He eats at the mountain shrines. He defiles his neighbor's wife.
12 He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things.
13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.
14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:
15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife.
16 He does not oppress anyone or require a pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked.
17 He withholds his hand from sin and takes no usury or excessive interest. He keeps my laws and follows my decrees. He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live.
18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.
19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live.
20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die.
29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
(NIV)
| Quote: |
JB quoted: 4. (1 Cor. 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive." |
"as in" in the same way Adam died, fell, we all fall.
ROMANS 5:12 ALBERT BARNS-original sin
All have sinned. To sin is to transgress the law of God; to do wrong. The apostle in this expression does not say that all have sinned in Adam, or that their nature has become corrupt, which is true, but which is not affirmed here; nor that the sin of Adam is imputed to them; but simply affirms that all men have sinned. He speaks evidently of the great universal fact that all men are sinners. He is not settling a metaphysical difficulty; nor does he speak of the condition of man as he comes into the world. He speaks as other men would; he addresses himself to the common sense of the world; and is discoursing of universal, well-known facts. Here is the fact—that all men experience calamity, condemnation, death. How is this to be accounted for? The answer is, "All have sinned." This is a sufficient answer; it meets the case. And as his design cannot be shown to be to discuss a metaphysical question about the nature of man, or about the character of infants, the passage should be interpreted according to his design, and should not be pressed to bear on that of which he says nothing, and to which the passage evidently has no reference. I understand it, therefore, as referring to the fact that men sin in their own persons, sin themselves— as, indeed, how can they sin in any other way?—and that therefore they die. If men maintain that it refers to any metaphysical properties of the nature of man, or to infants, they should not infer or suppose this, but should show distinctly that it is in the text. Where is there evidence of any such reference?
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | "Is unbelief, before it conceives and brings forth sin, an action? Is unbelief, in the mind, a sin? Is deciding to do something evil a sin, before we actually do it?" |
If belief would be "hitting the mark" that God has set for us to hit, then yes, unbelief would be "missing the mark." So, yes, unbelief in the mind would be "missing the mark" that God has set for us to hit.
In the same way, if deciding to do good would be "hitting the mark" that God has set for us to hit, then yes, deciding to do evil would be "missing the mark" that God has set for us to hit.
TAKING SCRIPTURE AT FACE VALUE
My wife and I believe the difficulty stems from our traditional Christian understanding of "sin." "Sin" is really nothing more than what the Greek and Hebrew words say it is: that is, sin is "missing the mark." As Scripture says: God wants us to be righteous, therefore, all unrighteousness misses the mark; God wants us to have faith, therefore, whatever is not of faith misses the mark; and God wants us to keep His commandments, therefore, everyone who transgresses the law misses the mark.
In other words, God has set a goal, or rather, a target that we should aim to hit. Should we miss that target, then we have missed the mark that God has set for us to hit. But, that doesn't necessarily mean we are damned for eternity. It simply means we "missed the mark" that God set for us to hit.
We think traditional Christianity has read to much into it the idea of sin, and thereby abandoned the simplicity and common sense of the gospel. But, we might be wrong. |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | "Guys this debate is over. You are on the edge here." |
We apologize if we've offended you with our thoughts or comments, JB. I assure you, we meant no harm. But, we agree, that if this topic is offensive to you (or anyone else, for that matter), then absolutely yes, this debate should be over.
Please accept our sincerest apologies, and I assure you, we will not discuss it further. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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I do have a question? If we're not born in sin, why did Jesus have be born of a virgin to be sin free?? 
Nobby
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Much Love Nobby
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | GC said: We think traditional Christianity has read to much into it the idea of sin, and thereby abandoned the simplicity and common sense of the gospel. But, we might be wrong. |
Amen.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1075
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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GC,
I am not offended. And please Don't take this the wrong way, but you guys are off the map on this one. Psalms 51. David made it clear that he was formed in sin in the womb. It doesn't get any clearer than that.
John Wesley the great Arminian would disagree with both you and JimD. I disagree with you also.
You can call it what you like. If they didn't inherit sin, or a sin nature then lets call it a depraved mind or a fallen condition. It wasn't that they chose to sin but that they could only sin. Paul made it clear in Romans when he quoted, "that which is not of faith is sin" The unsaved cannot walk in the light on their own. Until the Lord grants them faith they are in darkness.
Paul says in Romans 7 I do the things I don't want to do and the things that I want to do I don't do. Sounds like Paul disagrees also.
You can't choose Christ and even the Great Arminian John Wesley would say that.
I am not sure where you guys are coming from, but I just don't see it.
JB
And by the way, sins are passed from the father to the son. Not from the mother. |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | GospelCompilation wrote: | | JB wrote: | | "Guys this debate is over. You are on the edge here." |
We apologize if we've offended you with our thoughts or comments, JB. I assure you, we meant no harm. But, we agree, that if this topic is offensive to you (or anyone else, for that matter), then absolutely yes, this debate should be over.
Please accept our sincerest apologies, and I assure you, we will not discuss it further. |
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As far as I can tell there has been nothing said here that should offend anyone.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | I do have a question? If we're not born in sin, why did Jesus have be born of a virgin to be sin free?? |
In order to live a sinless life.
Not in order to be born without sin.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | GC,
I am not offended. And please Don't take this the wrong way, but you guys are off the map on this one. Psalms 51. David made it clear that he was formed in sin in the womb. It doesn't get any clearer than that. |
Psalm 51.5. but here the Psalmist is using hyperbole, a vivid picture, to bring out his deep awareness of his sin. He is not expounding a doctrine but expressing a feeling of revulsion at his own sinfulness. Possibly he is also vividly portraying the taint of sin inborn - the fact that he is what he is because he is a member of the human race, but it is his specific sin that he has in mind and for which he seeks forgiveness. He is not pleading a doctrinal position. He sees himself as needing forgiveness because he has actively sinned, not because he was born ‘sinful’.
So it would seem to me that the doctrine of original sin is a doctrine based on the historical fact that there is a tendency in all men that inevitably results in sin, and that Adam began it all, rather than a doctrine dealing with the question of why we face final judgment. The latter is because WE sin, not because we are born potential ‘sinners’. Isaiah 7:16
"For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.
(NAS95)
| Quote: | | JB said: John Wesley the great Arminian would disagree with both you and JimD. I disagree with you also. |
Does this really prove anything? 
| Quote: |
JB said: I am not sure where you guys are coming from, but I just don't see it. |
Of course not, because you have bought hook, line and sinker, the doctrines of man that you have been taught.
Dare to think for yourself.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | "If we're not born in sin, why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin to be sin free??" |
My wife made an interesting observation, Nobby. When she read your question, she immediately responded with:
If sin were genetically passed down from one sinful human being to another, and if Jesus was born of Mary (who herself was a sinful human being), then Jesus would have naturally inherited sin from his mother (that is, if we believe that Psalm 51 is talking about inheriting a sinful nature from one's mother).
Being a virgin did not make Mary sinless. Therefore, Jesus must have stood on His own merits and not relied on anyone else - other than His heavenly Father, of course.
We don't ascribe to the belief that Jesus was born of a virgin in order to be sinless. Rather, we believe Jesus was born of a virgin in order that He might take the place of Adam, in order to confirm His divine birth (that is to say, no human male contributed to His birth), and to ensure that He was fully human and fully God at the same time.
But that's just our opinion. |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | "By the way, sins are passed from the father to the son." |
Quite innocently, my wife chuckled when she read this, my friend. She leaned in close and whispered in my ear, "Well, that sure let's us women off the hook."
To suggest that only males can pass sin to their offspring sounds sort of ridiculous, if you ask me. My wife says that's not a nice thing to say (she often thinks me too harsh)... but I can't think of any other way to put it. My mind cannot even conceive of God ever creating such an economy - that "missing the mark" could only be passed down through male genes. That doesn't make sense... I wouldn't buy such an idea... even in a science fiction movie.
I'm sorry. I think it's more plausible that we've completely missed the point of those verses we use to claim such a thing. |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1075
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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JimD,GospelCompilation
What a quandary we find ourselves in.
If David says that he was formed in sin, then sin is in all humanity.
If Christ then was formed in the womb,you have to say that He wasn't formed in sin. Some how this idea must be reconciled. Are we born in sin or aren't we?
By the position that you take, You suggest that we fall from grace just as Adam did rather than being born apart from God. There in lies the challenge. What scriptural support do you have for that idea?
You are forced into one of two ideas as I see it.
1.) Christ wasn't perfect and thus the scriptures and His death are null and void.
2.) We are born sinless or with out a fallen nature.
Which idea best fits your claim to fame?
If you say that Christ wasn't perfect then you are a heretic and aren't of the faith. So the only real option that you have is that we are born sinless. I would like for you to give Biblical support for this and also explain why Mary had to be a Virgin to bring the Christ into the world and why she had to remain a virgin until He was born.
My friends, it is in the seed of man that sin is passed on.
GC your wife can chuckle all she wants in an innocent manner but I would for you to disprove this theory. I don't think that you can. But hey let's give this a shot. I am sure that I can, on several levels verify my position. First in a purely empirical manner and second in a totally scriptural manner.
JB |
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