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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I also have a light hearted question totally away from everything we have discussed. In only requires a Yes or No.
Do you count your time when you respond here?  |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Wolvo,
You are correct, my question was leading and you have shown who you are. 
| Wolvo wrote: | My view on this is that i see aspects of the sign, but these signs that Jesus refers to have been happening throughout history.
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Present where? If you are refering to the parousia of 1914 that JW's believe, then no i do not believe that. |
2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
I think you made it clear where you stand.
| Wolvo wrote: | | Do you count your time when you respond here? |
Not one bit. It is more of a hobbie. I have learned alot about people and their relentless efforts to respond so they will not appear to be wrong, though. Even when individualls are proven wrong they often times will not accept it, and change the subject to act as though they weren't talking about "that" at all. They often times fail to answer simple questions, or if they do they use ambiguous terminology, or vague scriptures with no explanation or obviously wrong application.
If someone learns something from what I have said here, great!!! But in order to learn the truth, God needs to draw them and they need to speak face to face with God's true servents without the constant distractions and apostates popping up to sow seeds of doubt, like you do here.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: The Sign! |
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Well TBax, now that you have your answer, if you don't mind, I'll pos ta bit of info about this sign that we are supposed to be seeing.
I found it, ragman!!
From the Watchtower site:
| Quote: | Jesus knew that following his execution and resurrection, centuries would pass before he would be enthroned in heaven as the Messianic King to rule over mankind. Since his enthronement would be invisible to humans, Jesus gave a sign that would enable his followers to recognize his “presence” as well as “the conclusion of the system of things.” This sign is composed of several facets, which together make up a composite identifying mark, or signal—the sign of Jesus’ presence.
Gospel writers Matthew, Mark, and Luke each carefully recorded Jesus’ answer. (Matthew, chapters 24 and 25; Mark, chapter 13; Luke, chapter 21) Other Bible writers added details to the sign. (2 Timothy 3:1-5; 2 Peter 3:3, 4; Revelation 6:1-8; 11:18) Space does not permit a close look at all the details, but we will consider five key elements that make up the sign mentioned by Jesus. You will find that this is relevant and important to you personally.—See box.
IDENTIFYING MARKS OF THE LAST DAYS
Unprecedented warfare.—Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:4
Famine.—Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:5, 6, 8
Pestilences.—Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:8
Increasing lawlessness.—Matthew 24:12
Earthquakes.—Matthew 24:7
Critical times hard to deal with.—2 Timothy 3:1
Inordinate love of money.—2 Timothy 3:2
Disobedience to parents.—2 Timothy 3:2
A lack of natural affection.—2 Timothy 3:3
Loving pleasures rather than God.—2 Timothy 3:4
A lack of self-control.—2 Timothy 3:3
Without love of goodness.—2 Timothy 3:3
Taking no note of the impending danger.—Matthew 24:39
Ridiculers rejecting proof of the last days.—2 Peter 3:3, 4
Global preaching of God’s Kingdom.—Matthew 24:14 |
Ya gotta love how that paragraph starts: "Jesus knew that following his execution and resurrection, centuries would pass before he would be enthroned in heaven as the Messianic King to rule over mankind. " I wonder where it states that in scripture.
But that's a bit beside the point. Apparently the "sign" is the things Jesus predicted in His Olivet Discourse, + a variety of other things that the epistles state would come "in the last days".
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Wolvo,
You are correct, my question was leading and you have shown who you are.
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Thought so, it's a shame JW's aren't in the least bit interested in what people think and believe. You have shown you just have an agenda here in pushing your own beliefs.
| Quote: | Wolvo wrote:
My view on this is that i see aspects of the sign, but these signs that Jesus refers to have been happening throughout history.
...
Present where? If you are refering to the parousia of 1914 that JW's believe, then no i do not believe that.
2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
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I have not ridiculed anyone. I have merely presented my argument. Just because it does not agree with your line of thinking does not make it ridicule.
| Quote: | | I think you made it clear where you stand. |
Definately
Interesting that haven't answered my question regarding 537BCE. You would have thought that "the truth" would stand up to scrutiny. |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Wolvo wrote:
Do you count your time when you respond here?
Not one bit. It is more of a hobbie. I have learned alot about people and their relentless efforts to respond so they will not appear to be wrong, though. Even when individualls are proven wrong they often times will not accept it, and change the subject to act as though they weren't talking about "that" at all. They often times fail to answer simple questions, or if they do they use ambiguous terminology, or vague scriptures with no explanation or obviously wrong application. |
Sounds like you're describing yourself from what i have seen of the way you talk to me and others.
| Quote: | | If someone learns something from what I have said here, great!!! But in order to learn the truth, God needs to draw them and they need to speak face to face with God's true servents without the constant distractions and apostates popping up to sow seeds of doubt, like you do here. |
It's easy to tar all those that research things independantly of an organisation as apostates. This is a word that JW's cast on someone who is not afraid to scrutinise their beliefs. If it is "the truth" it would stand up to these seeds of doubt you mention.
I am only interested in learning the truth and will not be told by you or any other JW what i should and should not believe. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Wolvo,
I am not the least bit supprised you cannot see the obvious and direct parallel between your words and 2 Peter 3:3,4.
| Wolvo wrote: | My view on this is that i see aspects of the sign, but these signs that Jesus refers to have been happening throughout history.
...
Present where? If you are refering to the parousia of 1914 that JW's believe, then no i do not believe that. |
2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
It is almost as though you were using 2 Peter 3 as a template for your answers. 
You can pretend you are just being scholarly, but you are just being silly. You are indeed a ridculer. That is why we are done here, and you will receive no answers.
| Wolvo wrote: | | This is a word that JW's cast on someone who is not afraid to scrutinise their beliefs. If it is "the truth" it would stand up to these seeds of doubt you mention. |
Oh, the truth stands up, indeed! But the ridiculer will not see it as he is blind.
Prov 11:9 By [his] mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued.
2 Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.
You can pretend you are interested in truth and research. Your answers show you are by no means objective, but a ridiculer, and your aganda drives your conclusions.
Regarding peoples efforts to appear to be right:
| Wolvo wrote: | | Sounds like you're describing yourself from what i have seen of the way you talk to me and others. |
You mean like, in another tread, when I made a statement, and you said I was wrong, and I proceeded to provide the proof yet you will not accept it???
Another tactic I have observed from individualls. They like to baselessly make accusations, whereas when I make accusations I can prove it.
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Wolvo,
I am not the least bit supprised you cannot see the obvious and direct parallel between your words and 2 Peter 3:3,4.
Wolvo wrote:
My view on this is that i see aspects of the sign, but these signs that Jesus refers to have been happening throughout history.
...
Present where? If you are refering to the parousia of 1914 that JW's believe, then no i do not believe that.
2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
It is almost as though you were using 2 Peter 3 as a template for your answers.
You can pretend you are just being scholarly, but you are just being silly. You are indeed a ridculer. That is why we are done here, and you will receive no answers.
Wolvo wrote:
This is a word that JW's cast on someone who is not afraid to scrutinise their beliefs. If it is "the truth" it would stand up to these seeds of doubt you mention.
Oh, the truth stands up, indeed! But the ridiculer will not see it as he is blind.
Prov 11:9 By [his] mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued.
2 Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.
You can pretend you are interested in truth and research. Your answers show you are by no means objective, but a ridiculer, and your aganda drives your conclusions. |
Just because you can't destroy the message, you try and destroy the messenger.
Lame tactic. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Wolvo,
| Wolvo wrote: | My view on this is that i see aspects of the sign, but these signs that Jesus refers to have been happening throughout history.
...
Present where? If you are refering to the parousia of 1914 that JW's believe, then no i do not believe that. |
2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
It is almost as though you were using 2 Peter 3 as a template for your answers.
| Wolvo wrote: | | Just because you can't destroy the message, you try and destroy the messenger. |
You have destroyed yourself.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You have destroyed yourself. |
How so?
You have made sweeping statements.
You have obviously got to a point where you can no longer answer any questions, which is why you have decided not to answer mine even though i have answered every one of yours.
When a person gets to this stage, depending on the character of their nature they do one of three things...
1) Accept they have got it wrong.
2) Accept that we have a difference of opinion on matters, so no longer wish to discuss the matter.
3) Start name calling.
Wonder which one you have resorted to? Quite childish if you ask me. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Wolvo,
| Wolvo wrote: | | You have obviously got to a point where you can no longer answer any questions, which is why you have decided not to answer mine even though i have answered every one of yours. |
Correct. It became clear who I was speaking to. Can you not see 2 Peter 3:3,4???
What I think is childish is you trying to goad me into continuing with you.
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Correct. It became clear who I was speaking to. |
Then i am glad you are here, perhaps you may learn something.
If you wish to carry on with your name calling then thats fine, hey i can take it. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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Wolvo,
How about scripture writting?
2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
What I think is childish is you trying to goad me into continuing with you.
Goodbye. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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As I have discussed in other threads, I have been a member of a few churches and ministries in my life in which the leadership felt entitled to exercise a heavy amount of control over the church/ministry members. In my experience it has consistently been their practice, when proven wrong by God's Word or good common sense, to begin attacking the character of the person with greater truth than they.
Even in this forum, the Witnesses admit that if someone receives truth from God's Word which the organization does not teach, they are expected to adhere to "present truth" (IOW the teaching of the organization) rather than the truth that God has revealed if there is a conflict between the two, or they are considered proud or unteachable.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How about scripture writting? |
Spellcheck?
| Quote: | 2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
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You asked me a question and i answered it fully. I said from the outset it was obviously a leading question. So you already had this in mind, regardless of my answer, prior to asking the question.
I have not asked, "where is this promised presence of his?" What i answered if you read correctly is that "i do not know", which is why i am open minded and here for discussion. Yet you applied part of my answer to this scripture, which was your intention as you admitted before you read my reply.
| Quote: | What I think is childish is you trying to goad me into continuing with you.
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You do not have to reply to me. In fact you are breaking your rules to do so. But i do not want to frighten you off, as i respect the fact that at least you attempt to defend your beliefs, even though you find it impossible.
Zathrus wrote,
| Quote: | As I have discussed in other threads, I have been a member of a few churches and ministries in my life in which the leadership felt entitled to exercise a heavy amount of control over the church/ministry members. In my experience it has consistently been their practice, when proven wrong by God's Word or good common sense, to begin attacking the character of the person with greater truth than they.
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Thank you Zathrus. This comes from the top down, JW's brandish the word "apostate" around when they have no counter argument to a criticism directed towards them. However TBax uses a different, yet similar tactic by using the word "ridiculer", i have looked at other threads on here he has done exactly the same in the past with others.
| Quote: | | Even in this forum, the Witnesses admit that if someone receives truth from God's Word which the organization does not teach, they are expected to adhere to "present truth" (IOW the teaching of the organization) rather than the truth that God has revealed if there is a conflict between the two, or they are considered proud or unteachable. |
Even Fred Franz is quoted as saying this. |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life says on page 13: | Quote: |
We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God's Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.
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