 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: | | Was that a mistake that you wrote "infallible"??? |
Lol, yes it was.
See even i make mistakes as well as the WT  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wolvo,
| Wolvo wrote: | | See even i make mistakes as well as the WT |
Wow! Even you?
The Watchtower doesn't claim infallibility. Especially when relaying historical data. It is as fallible as the historians, or archeologists, and the records found. If you think ancient records are infallible, that would be a mistake. For instance, kings had things recorded to their liking, not as to accuracy. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Then i do not understand why so many would put faith in an organisation that could be mistaken.
The WT relies on historical documents when it suits them. Ptolemy's Canon for instance, the WT will criticise it for reignal lengths of kings as you have shown. But for the support of 539BCE as the 1st year of Cyrus they fail to mention that Ptolemy's Canon may have mistakes on it.
The WT society presents it's dates such as 1914 as fact, which in part is based on Ptolemy's Canon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wolvo,
Do you know of an organization that cannot be mistaken?
| Wolvo wrote: | | The WT society presents it's dates such as 1914 as fact, which in part is based on Ptolemy's Canon. |
Along with other data that confirms that information. More importantly, fulfilled prophesy coinsides with the time line from 539. Most notable, a large chunk of that time is accounted by 490 years, is the prophesy regarding the word to rebuild and restore Jerusalem until the messiah was to appear in 29 C.E..
The fact is, since 1914 we have seen the composite sign Jesus fortold regarding the last days and his presence. 
Just a coincidence???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
I do not know of an organisation that cannot be mistaken TBax, no i don't. Which is why a person should not put faith in an organisation, but in God.
| Quote: | The fact is, since 1914 we have seen the composite sign Jesus fortold regarding the last days and his presence.
Just a coincidence???
|
I have demonstrated that 1914 was just one of the many dates that the bible students held as prophesy.
It is easy to look back and pick one of those dates after the event. But thats been said on another thread so i'm not going around in circles on this one about it.
For me, i am glad here that you admit the WT makes mistakes, it's a shame the WTS itself will not admit that.
If they make mistakes how do you know they are not mistaken now? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wolvo,
Please answer: Do you see the sign Jesus fortold, that he is present and we are in the last days?
| Wolvo wrote: | | If they make mistakes how do you know they are not mistaken now? |
How do you know you are not mistaken now? Is it your contention that these Bible students should have understood everything right from the beginning, instead of the progressive understanding that took place, when most religions don't even attempt to understand such things even now??? 
Your expectations are unreasonable, and you, as well as those listening to you are the one who will suffer because of it. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TBax wrote: | | Please answer: Do you see the sign Jesus fortold, that he is present and we are in the last days? |
TBax, could you tell us specifically what is this sign that we should be seeing?
| TBax wrote: | | Is it your contention that these Bible students should have understood everything right from the beginning, instead of the progressive understanding that took place, when most religions don't even attempt to understand such things even now??? |
I must admit I give someone who tries and fails more credit than someone who does not try at all. But someone who tries, fails, and repeats the same mistakes??
Any "Bible student" who claims their beliefs are the only ones that lead to salvation and their organization is the only way to salvation sets the standard for himself that he be right about everything. By virtue of the fact that the Witnesses are still learning, just like the rest of us (as much as someone who thinks they already know it all can learn anything), they show that they do not have sole claim to the truth, or to salvation.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Zathrus,
As far as I am concerned, that question about the sign wasn't for you, Zathrus. You do not believe there are last days of this system of things, nor do you believe armageddon is coming. Your participation at this point is a deviation from the conversation.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Far be it from me to want to get the conversation off track. But I am following it, as I'm sure others are. I would like to understand what you are discussing.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Zathrus,
What I am currently interested in is if Wolvo sees the sign Jesus described, not you. This isn't about you or your preterist perspective. Forgive me if this sounds harsh, but I am not the least bit interested in what you have to say on this. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tbax wrote: | | Please answer: Do you see the sign Jesus fortold, that he is present and we are in the last days? |
| Quote: | | As far as I am concerned, that question about the sign wasn't for you, Zathrus. You do not believe there are last days of this system of things, nor do you believe armageddon is coming. Your participation at this point is a deviation from the conversation. |
I would like to know the answer to Zathrus question. So I will ask it.
TBax, could you tell us specifically what is this sign that we should be seeing?
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
ragman,
Do you believe we are in "the last days"? Have you never heard of this before?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TBax wrote: | | This isn't about you or your preterist perspective. |
Who said it was?
| TBax wrote: | | Forgive me if this sounds harsh, but I am not the least bit interested in what you have to say on this. |
I am not saying anything. I am asking you to say something. And I'm quite aware that you're not the least bit interested in most of what I have to say when I post to say something.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Zathrus,
Wolvo should understand my question. As should any "Christian".
As far as I am concerned, that question about the sign wasn't for you, Zathrus. You do not believe there are last days of this system of things, nor do you believe armageddon is coming. Your participation at this point is a deviation from the conversation.
If ragman wants to participate, I will answer him. But I will not answer you. I know what you believe. And getting into that doesn't help people. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Wolvo,
Please answer:
Wolvo wrote:
If they make mistakes how do you know they are not mistaken now?
How do you know you are not mistaken now? Is it your contention that these Bible students should have understood everything right from the beginning, instead of the progressive understanding that took place, when most religions don't even attempt to understand such things even now???
Your expectations are unreasonable, and you, as well as those listening to you are the one who will suffer because of it. |
I see again that you are shifting the debate away from WT contradictions. You have asked a number of questions. I will answer every one of your questions and in return i hope you will answer the one of mine at the end of my post.
| Quote: | Do you see the sign Jesus fortold, that he is present and we are in the last days?
|
The mere fact you have put this in bold shows that this seems to be important to you. The cynical side of me suspects that it is a leading question, as i am aware that JW's are fine tuned in the art of leading questions being taught through your theocratic ministry school. That said if your question is a genuine, sincere one and you are truly interested in my beliefs, then i apologise in advance. However i suspect the former but that will be answered in how you respond.
Your question really is three questions, so i will respond to each
| Quote: | | Do you see the sign Jesus fortold |
I'm assuming and correct me if i am wrong, that you are refering to the sign in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
My view on this is that i see aspects of the sign, but these signs that Jesus refers to have been happening throughout history. I am aware that Jesus was refering to the imminent destruction of Jeruselem, as JW's agree. But whether this refers to a future prophesy is open for debate. I tend to lean towards that Jesus was talking about the imminent because of amongst others Luke ch.21 v.24 | Quote: | | ...Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled |
The key word for me is "will", future tense, not past as the JW stance is with regards to the 607-1914 fulfillment of "appointed times of the nations".
| Quote: | | that he is present |
Present where? If you are refering to the parousia of 1914 that JW's believe, then no i do not believe that.
| Quote: | and we are in the last days?
|
My view on this is that for many years evangelical christians such as yourself have been saying this. JW's used to say that we have lived in the last days since 1799. Therefore by spanning 4 centuries, how can we be sure that the last days are now? (rhetoric). Part of me feels that another century or two may pass and it will still be discussed.
To sum up the answer to the whole of the question is "i don't know", but it's an educated one, rather than an ignorant, uneducated "i don't kow". I guess that's why i am on this board to debate beliefs and see where it leads me.
Your next question,
| Quote: | | How do you know you are not mistaken now? |
Mistaken about what? This thread is refering to the mistakes in WT literature. Interestingly you have said that the NB timeline as regards to the kings succession, presented in the current WT Insight to the Scriptures is a mistake. What i have done is present quotations from societies literature, in that i am not mistaken. If you are refering to something else with your question then you will have to ellaborate.
| Quote: | | Is it your contention that these Bible students should have understood everything right from the beginning, instead of the progressive understanding that took place, when most religions don't even attempt to understand such things even now??? |
At the beginning of what? Some argue that Russell wasn't the beginning of the JW's but Judge Rutherford, however i see that is addressed here on another thread, so i will not get involved in the debate on that one. Russell and his students came together to debate, which is what serious bible students do now.
I take issue with your statement,
| Quote: | | the progressive understanding that took place |
I see nothing progressive about making mistakes and then covering up those mistakes, by firstly remaining silent on the issue, not acknowledging those mistakes and secondly just changing the original meaning of their statements to make it look like there was no mistake.
| Quote: | | when most religions don't even attempt to understand such things even now??? |
I see how attacking what other religions do as a weak line to take in defending your own.
| Quote: | | Your expectations are unreasonable |
If your organisation truly did have Jehovah God on your side, my expectation is far from unreasonable.
| Quote: | | and you, as well as those listening to you are the one who will suffer because of it. |
Who are you to judge?
Now that i have answered your questions, getting the thread back on the original subject of 1914 i would like to ask you a question.
Your foundation of the1914 doctrine, since we have been living in the last days, is that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607BCE. I have scrutinised this and have argued alternative dates. You still accept that 607BCE is the date however and that is your perogative. You argue this is the date because you count backwards 70 years from 537BCE when you say the Jews were released from captivity.
My question to you is how do you know Cyrus released the Jews in 537BCE and not 538BCE or 536BCE?[/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
